When is a christian NOT a Christian?

[Enoch111]

Am I wrong?

Unfortunately you are wrong, for the simple reason that no Creed is Scripture. John 1:12,13 tells you who is a Christian. There are many other Scripture to back that up.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Unfortunately you are wrong, for the simple reason that no Creed is Scripture. John 1:12,13 tells you who is a Christian. There are many other Scripture to back that up.

So what is your opinion of the Nicene Creed and /or the Council that was set up ...Christian's declaring
what a Christian was? "This is a Christian." Toss it out the window, ignore it?
Thanks.

Oh, John1:12 talks about being a child of God...nothing about being a Christian.
Am I making you crazy being so specific, yet?

 

[Triumph1300]

So I think the position of judging by fruit can be misleading. Bearing good fruit is the eventual state of the true Christian, but just like with a tree in the natural world, one cannot tell what fruit it will bear until it fully matures (or dies away before it gets the chance to).

Non Christians also produce good fruit. That's true.
I know many decent good people who are non believers.
Some produce more fruits (by the looks of it) than some Christians.

Yes, one needs to mature in Christian Life. I agree.
I would say in general you will know them by their fruits.

We are all sinners, there is only one without sin.

So how do we look at this issue? By using common sense, but some people don't have common sense.

Complicated issue? Only God knows the heart.
So, should we judge? Only righteously.

I believe they were ...I do not believe that the ground opened and dropped them into hell.

God is a graceful God.

 

[Enoch111]

So what is your opinion of the Nicene Creed and /or the Council that was set up ...Christian's declaring what a Christian was? "This is a Christian." Toss it out the window, ignore it?

The Nicene Creed has long held its place in Christendom, so it has much to commend it. But there are a couple of statements in it which would not be accepted by evangelical Christians, e.g. that baptism is for the remission of sins, and that the Church is "the Holy Catholic Church". Also, many people can give full mental assent to the Creed without necessarily being born again.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He said that it was IMPERATIVE that a person be born again in order (1) to see the Kingdom of God and (2) to enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:3,5). So entrance into God's Kingdom is via the New Birth, which is supernatural and spiritual (1 John 1:12,13). According to God, a Christian is one who has been (1) born from from above, (2) born of the Spirit, and (3) born of God. It is "Christ in you the hope of glory" and those who are born again receive Christ and the Holy Spirit into their spirits and souls, and also become "new creatures in Christ".

 

[brakelite]

This is a good strong post, but let me engage you here. There is one statement embedded in it that seems to define your position on what makes a Christian not a Christian and that is this, "For my own life, I alone know this about me, and nobody has the insight except by the HOLY SPIRIT to know who I am, except by the fruit of the Spirit that follow me (Romans and Galatians)."

I'm assuming you are referring to passages like Galatians 5:19-26:

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Now, I personally believe this to be Paul making a clear distinction between those fully walking in the flesh vs. those fully walking in the Spirit. But the question is this: Is he presenting this as a means for judging on the exterior whether someone has received Christ or not? You see, he ends it with "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit," which suggests that true believers who live by the Spirit could nevertheless not walk in the Spirit as they ought to. It reminds me of 2 Peter 1:5-10, where Peter likewise stated that some believers were not adding virtue, knowledge, patience, temperance, etc to their faith, and that this might lead to their taking on forgetfulness of the cleansing of their sins in times past (2 Peter 1:9). This means that they had been baptized, yet were not yet showing the fruit of it. That in turn put them in spiritual danger, by keeping their faith in a very weakened state whereby they were not making their calling and election sure (v.10).

So I think the position of judging by fruit can be misleading. Bearing good fruit is the eventual state of the true Christian, but just like with a tree in the natural world, one cannot tell what fruit it will bear until it fully matures (or dies away before it gets the chance to).

What do you think?
Looking forward to your response. I found your post quote good in many respects.

Welcome to Christianity Board.
Hidden In Him

I take your point. Even in the final judgement, the harvest isn't taken up until the fruit is ripe. And even non believers can do good deeds, although we can sort through that by observing the general tenor and direction of the life. The odd misdeed of the Christian didn't disqualify him, not does the odd good deed of the heathen qualify him. Do where does that leave is in regards to identifying brethren online? Not in the odd post containing disagreeable statements or doctrines, but I think maybe as above, in the general tenor and spirit and the manner in which the posts are presented. Constant belligerence... Criticism... Put downs... Negativity... Could be a fairly good sign that the person needs conversion... Or a fairly good sign that a person needs anti depressants. Not sure I'm getting anywhere here.

 

[brakelite]

Do you believe with all your heart that Jesus is God?

When Jesus asked the disciples, "who do ye say that I am", what was Peter's answer that elicited Christ's fullest approval?

 

[Hidden In Him]

So, should we judge? Only righteously.

Yes. I agree. It brings to mind some things I've read about how most Christians judge ministers and pastors based on how big a following they have in this life, but that God in reality judges who is most worthy of reward in the next life by a far different standard. Thus many who appear to be the least now will be the greatest then, and visa versa.

All true believers will bear fruit, but even then the fruit some will bear will not be nearly as recognizable as what appears to be fruit in others. If we would judge, we must judge righteous judgment, which can be a difficult thing to do and requires great discernment in some cases.

 

[Enoch111]

When Jesus asked the disciples, "who do ye say that I am", what was Peter's answer that elicited Christ's fullest approval?

Son of the living God = the eternal Son of God = God.

HEBREWS 1
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? [JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD]

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. [ONLY GOD CAN BE WORSHIPPED BY ANGELS]

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. [ANGELS ARE CREATED BEINGS]

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[GOD THE FATHER DECLARES THAT HIS SON IS GOD WHO HAS AN ETERNAL THRONE]

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [GOD THE FATHER HAS ANOINTED GOD THE SON]

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
[JESUS IS THE WORD, WHO IS BOTH THE CREATOR, AND GOD]

 

[brakelite]

Son of the living God = the eternal Son of God = God.

HEBREWS 1
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? [JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD]

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. [ONLY GOD CAN BE WORSHIPPED BY ANGELS]

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. [ANGELS ARE CREATED BEINGS]

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[GOD THE FATHER DECLARES THAT HIS SON IS GOD WHO HAS AN ETERNAL THRONE]

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [GOD THE FATHER HAS ANOINTED GOD THE SON]

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
[JESUS IS THE WORD, WHO IS BOTH THE CREATOR, AND GOD]

Hey, I get all that, and accept it. But you didn't accurately answer my question. What satisfied Jesus as an answer to the question, who is He? Should we demand of others a higher standard or greater understanding than what Jesus accepted of Peter?
Particularly when we consider the following...
KJV 1 John 4
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Constant belligerence... Criticism... Put downs... Negativity... Could be a fairly good sign that the person needs conversion... Or a fairly good sign that a person needs anti depressants. Not sure I'm getting anywhere here.

If we could actually prescribe anti-depressants for a few members, you might be, LoL.

Yes, when it comes to online Christians, I think even an infant in Christ would show repentance for their sins once they came to their senses, whereas some never do manifest a repentant spirit. Reminds me of the Lord's statement about becoming a child to enter the kingdom. I've been as ugly as they come on occasion. My saving grace is that despite being seriously offensive at times, I'm never at peace with it, and eventually attempt to reconcile. I'll occasionally even openly apologize for the way I treated others. I posted about wishing I hadn't been so hard on THBE and a few others just a few weeks ago...

But I can forgive great offenses because I know I am just as capable of doing the offending myself. But a child of God admits his sins in humility and asks for forgiveness. Those who stand guilty in my eyes are not those who sin yet express a repentant attitude about things later. It's those who never admit they have sinned to begin with, and continue on in the same behavior day in and day out, as if it has become normalized in them.

 

[Mayflower]

I think creeds are just a good standard to go by. I think this song says it all though:

 

[Butterfly]

You would know there is wilful blindness when you would present clear Scripture and the response would be to ignore what was presented, and continue posting the erroneous belief. Let's say you presented someone with clear Scripture that Christ died for the sins of the whole world (all humanity). The proper response would be to acknowledge the truth and turn away from the error. However, wilful blindness would be to continue to insist that Christ died only for the so-called "elect".

No, I am not talking about denial. The reasonable expectation of every Christian is that other Christians will take Scripture very seriously and respond accordingly.

No one can know the inner motives of others. But we can clearly see their wilful blindness when they refuse and reject the truth.

Let's say a Jehovah's Witness comes to your door and agrees to discuss the deity of Christ with you. You show her the Scriptures which clearly say that Jesus is God. Then you ask her "Do you now believe that Jesus is God?" And she turns around and says "No, I do not believe that Jesus is God". You do not need to see her motives. She saw the Word of God and rejected it. End of story.

Thanks for explaining Enoch , I am not totally convinced that it is wilful blindness. Many can be so indoctrinated that they simply don't see things any other way, in their hearts they truly believe that what they have been told is the truth. The JW's have their own bible - other can make people blind to the truth, and because they have grown up around it they need a real touch of a the Lord, an encounter , to open their eyes.
With regards to your example about those who are saved. I came to faith 40 years ago , but I believed right up until a few years back that it was only those ' in christ ' who would be saved. I was a Christian , but how you look at certain passages will vary in interpretation. Now my eyes have been opened to see things differently. I now understand that Christ died for the whole of humanity. I wasn't choosing to see one reality- I was simply blind to it. Wilful, to me , defines a choice - but that is just my opinion X
Rita

 

[JohnPaul]

HI,
I still think it is belief in the Nicene Creed 100%, I know, I'm one of the only ones ...
makes no difference if a person is the best person ever ...if
you don't believe every word in that you are not considered a Christian by the Christian Standard that was written
...that is what has been 'set down'...'declared'...Like a motto of a Fraternity.
Not by God or Jesus or Mary or Peter....by the Christians in Power...the ones that started this like a Fraternity...a brotherhood of
comrades. No?
If you don't believe in that Creed you don't belong to the 'Club'.
I am not mocking anything...it's just how I see the Nicene Creed...it's the (High) Council's decision.

Cuz really who cares about a group or belonging to a group or being labeled...we all know
it's between you and God, right?

Say you're at the pearly gates, ha....that sentence you just declared, in bold, should be your ticket...
not saying, 'I'm a Christian'.
I dunno, I'm just sayin ...that is how I see it...I can't be making things up as to what a Christian is...it has already been set up.
Am I wrong?

How about if you never read anything and simply believe and love Christ? What if you somehow one day receive the spirit of God the father and his only begotten son.

I will take time to read the Nicene Creed, I probably have read it already, I did my Catechism.

 

[JohnPaul]

HI,
I still think it is belief in the Nicene Creed 100%, I know, I'm one of the only ones ...
makes no difference if a person is the best person ever ...if
you don't believe every word in that you are not considered a Christian by the Christian Standard that was written
...that is what has been 'set down'...'declared'...Like a motto of a Fraternity.
Not by God or Jesus or Mary or Peter....by the Christians in Power...the ones that started this like a Fraternity...a brotherhood of
comrades. No?
If you don't believe in that Creed you don't belong to the 'Club'.
I am not mocking anything...it's just how I see the Nicene Creed...it's the (High) Council's decision.

Cuz really who cares about a group or belonging to a group or being labeled...we all know
it's between you and God, right?

Say you're at the pearly gates, ha....that sentence you just declared, in bold, should be your ticket...
not saying, 'I'm a Christian'.
I dunno, I'm just sayin ...that is how I see it...I can't be making things up as to what a Christian is...it has already been set up.
Am I wrong?

@Miss Hepburn, I just read the Nicene Creed, it is like the Apostles Creed, which I had to learn in Catechism, instead of we, I is used.

 

[tabletalk]

Nice, but that is cope out. And I expect that from most of the posts.
No doubt we will get lists of verses from the bible.
We already all know what the bible says...

I want to hear what members themselves think. ....You know as well as I do that People are always saying who is a real christian and who is not.

So, does the Nicene Creed define it for you?

Or maybe the Thread subject should read :-

When is a christian not a christian???????
( I have now changed the title)

You said:
"No doubt we will get lists of verses from the bible.
We already all know what the bible says…"

Part of the definition of a Christian is that one would use Bible verses to define 'Christian'.
So, with your desire to not use the Bible, plus your denial of the Triune nature of the Godhead: you are not a Christian.

 

[bbyrd009]

So you think you know me and my Master do you?

If you knew my Master, you would know mercy, HOPE and love...

And I HOPE, that one day you will receive these things...

When the disciples James and John saw this they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?"

Jesus turned and rebuked them,


You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

well I guess pretty much everyone hopes that everyone else will believe like they do at some point, huh?

Your question was answered. Why do you kick at the goad?

Peace be with you!

sorry PJ your answer was a joke OK. I'm sorry there's no witness here to verify that for you, and i srsly doubt you will be asking anyone else either yeh?

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, they are called Jesus Only. That is to say, each of the Trinitarians three persons in the Godhead according to them are manifestations of the one God whose name is Jesus. That perhaps is oversimplifying it, but I left them as a member for the last time in 1987 so I have no recent personal knowledge. I was with them and two other organizations with similar beliefs for 11 years. The primary difference between and the others, was one was originally all black people and one was all Hispanic. The UPC itself was all white. Now at least a few people have crossed the race lines.

With my family I belonged to an all black assembly in Vallejo, CA. With 300-400 in attendance, mine was the only white family. It was really a very good experience. My son who was not yet a teenager at the time still remembers it as the one time he was certain we were there in accord with God's will. Our black pastor was certain that God had sent us to them to help members get past their racism against white folks.

hey Vallejo! You ever catch the gospel hour there downtown at the Baptist Church?

 

[bbyrd009]

Am I declared a Christian? I love Jesus Christ with all my heart.

I guess pretty much everyone does John Paul, yes

 

[bbyrd009]

HI,
I still think it is belief in the Nicene Creed 100%, I know, I'm one of the only ones ...
makes no difference if a person is the best person ever ...if
you don't believe every word in that you are not considered a Christian by the Christian Standard that was written
...that is what has been 'set down'...'declared'...Like a motto of a Fraternity.
Not by God or Jesus or Mary or Peter....by the Christians in Power...the ones that started this like a Fraternity...a brotherhood of
comrades. No?
If you don't believe in that Creed you don't belong to the 'Club'.
I am not mocking anything...it's just how I see the Nicene Creed...it's the (High) Council's decision.

Cuz really who cares about a group or belonging to a group or being labeled...we all know
it's between you and God, right?

Say you're at the pearly gates, ha....that sentence you just declared, in bold, should be your ticket...
not saying, 'I'm a Christian'.
I dunno, I'm just sayin ...that is how I see it...I can't be making things up as to what a Christian is...it has already been set up.
Am I wrong?

even gandhi loves Jesus right.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

The Nicene Creed has long held its place in Christendom, so it has much to commend it. But there are a couple of statements in it which would not be accepted by evangelical Christians, e.g. that baptism is for the remission of sins, and that the Church is "the Holy Catholic Church". Also, many people can give full mental assent to the Creed without necessarily being born again.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He said that it was IMPERATIVE that a person be born again in order (1) to see the Kingdom of God and (2) to enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:3,5). So entrance into God's Kingdom is via the New Birth, which is supernatural and spiritual (1 John 1:12,13). According to God, a Christian is one who has been (1) born from above, (2) born of the Spirit, and (3) born of God. It is "Christ in you the hope of glory" and those who are born again receive Christ and the Holy Spirit into their spirits and souls, and also become "new creatures in Christ".

I do not disagree , exactly...
But may I ask ...how do you know God the Father...would have a name such as 'Christian' for us?
And where is it that God says to be a Christian you must be born again?
Yes, a person needs to be Born again as Jesus said to enter the Kingdom, that is not in question...but the subject here is, for me,
can I call myself a Christian, (not looking at others, they are not my business), Born again, Baptized in the Holy Spirit, pray-er in tongues,
a healer by His Grace, many Gifts of the Holy Spirit....call myself a Christian not believing 100% in the Nicene Creed?
I say, 'No'..since that is the definition to be in that group called Christians.

I am gathering you have your own definition of being called a Christian ...'having' to be Born Again.
Oh my, do I know many that consider themselves Christian
that have not been given this Divine experience, yet..esp, new baby Christians.
Thanks again, Enoch.

Btw, in the Creed 'catholic' doesn't mean the Roman Catholic Church, of course.---don't believe me....here,
a definition online, plucked from within a sentence:
"...the word "catholic" (universal) to no one denomination,..."