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Featured When is a christian NOT a Christian?

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by "ByGrace", Jul 14, 2019.

  1. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    ( EDIT:- addition....I am added this and changed the heading.
    I am NOT after a list of verses about salvation...but I want to hear 'from you'.
    I changed the heading when responding to @Enoch111 's post below. )
    thanks....
    -------

    I was thinking it would be interesting what other Christians here think a Christian is...
    AND who is 'allowed' to call themselves that?

    (
    We'd like you in on this too @lforrest don't want you missing this post. :) )

    There was some chatter the other day about who was 'allowed' to have "Christian" under their avatar and who should put 'Other Faith', in it's place. ( locking them out of 95% of the forum boards)
    So, who defines who can call themselves a christian?

    The Nicene creed was mentioned. > for those who don't know it , or have forgotten its content. Nicene Creed

    I for one don't agree with a line at the end of it... re the Holy Spirit. It says:-
    "He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
    and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified."


    I don't agree with that... I don't care if they were wise old men with beards.
    I don't find that (bolded line) anywhere in the bible at all. In fact it is says He points TO the Father and Son. ( away from Himself)

    The Nicene Creed would also define as none-christian any who have a different interpretation of what is called "The Trinity" ...with all the gobbledegook that goes with it about whether it is three persons in one, or one person with three distinct expressions...blah blah blah...
    So, if the Nicene Creed is the acid test....are the none trinitarians not christians along with me...( who doesn't believe the Holy Spirit wants to be 'worshipped and glorified'. )

    So, who says who is a christian, and who is not. :)

    What do all of you have to say?

    .....Helen
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  2. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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  3. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    God says who is a Christian and who is not.

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
    even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)
     
  4. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Nice, but that is cope out. And I expect that from most of the posts.
    No doubt we will get lists of verses from the bible.
    We already all know what the bible says...

    I want to hear what members themselves think. ....You know as well as I do that People are always saying who is a real christian and who is not.

    So, does the Nicene Creed define it for you?

    Or maybe the Thread subject should read :-

    When is a christian not a christian???????
    ( I have now changed the title)
     
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  5. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    No one can judge the servant of another. So if a person says they are a Christian then we should accept them as such until they prove otherwise.

    The word "Christian" is casting a very wide net. There can be novice Christians...carnal Christians, spiritual Christians, religious Christians, Sectarian Christians, heretic Christians, righteous Christians...etc...

    I think there are really a lot of catagories we could name of Christians.

    But the bible boils all these down into 3 types...(and all are Christian)

    The holy: saints who walk in the grace of God and/or are led by the Spirit.
    The righteous: These are humble and fear the Lord and act honestly and have love for others.
    The filthy: These are the pretenders...the hypocrites, the religious believers who say much but are really just doing their own thing. Claiming to be holy these always soil their garments with the world.

    God will judge who is really whom. In the meantime we try helping each other in growth and becoming one by the Spirit. We are members one of another. The ones who exclude themselves from this kind of fellowship have done so of their own free will.
     
  6. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
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  7. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    @Episkopos

    Thanks good post...right from the heart.

    But I suppose on these forums the admin have a standard and draw a line.

    I 'think' I have the story right , that 'somebody' told someone else that they should change their profile status from christian to 'other'.

    If the forum admin has not drawn that line then I myself would not have heeded it. ( but they did)
    Neither was it another persons place to do so, ( as the admin had not done so themselves )

    I feel that "you are not a true christian" is thrown around by other people far too easily. Myself, I could not tell another person that they were not a christian.
    even if they 'thought' that they were...( if it was plainly obvious that they had had no real face to face encounter ...then it would be redemptive in that situation to tell them of your experience and breaking, and lead them lovingly into the truth. )

    What redemption is there in "you are not a true christian".

    I am babbling here I know... lol
     
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  8. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Oh sorry ... How could on earth could I forget to tag you on my list here.. :D

    Please if you have time, can you respond on my last post just below yours above here. #7


    Thanks...Helen
     
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  9. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    In one way, what I guess I am looking for is honest opinions from the heart.

    Oh and I forgot @Willie T @101G @FHII @H. Richard in my tagging! Sorry
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The Nicene Creed is not the criterion for defining a Christian. And the Nicene Creed has been modernized and does not correspond to the one in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer:
    The Nicene Creed
    Traditional Version (From the Book of Common Prayer)
    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty
    Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible:
    And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds;
    God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God;
    begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father
    ,
    by Whom all things were made:
    Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven,
    and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man:
    And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried:
    And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures:
    And ascended into Heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father:
    And he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead:
    Whose Kingdom will have no end:
    And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
    Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son
    Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified,
    Who spake by the Prophets.
    And I believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church,
    I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.
    And I look for the Resurrection of the Dead:
    And the Life of the world to come. Amen.


    According to this Creed (and Scripture), those who reject the deity of Christ -- that He is "God of God" and "very God of very God" -- cannot call themselves Christians.

    At the same time, many Christians would disagree with this: I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.

    Also, "One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" has taken on the meaning of the Catholic Church, which is not the scriptural meaning.

    You said that you disagree with this regarding the Holy Spirit: Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified. But since the triune Godhead is indeed one God, when we worship God, the Holy Spirit is included.
     
  11. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    I have different standards personally vs for the purposes of the site, and Jesus himself surely has a different standards too.

    My standards pretty much match the Nicene Creed. But not everyone can comprehend it, so if they believe Jesus Christ is God and they have accepted him as their savior that's good enough for me to address them as Christian.

    The site's standard is more permissive, allowing even those who do not agree with the divinity of Christ to call themselves Christian. I have agreed to this in order to not shut out JW's and others who come from denominations that do not agree with the Nicene Creed as written in our statement of faith. If someone chooses to not call themselves a Christian because they don't want to be grouped with the rest of the people calling themselves Christian, that is on them.

    As for Jesus' standards, they are not things a third party can actually observe and judge. First question does he know you? He is God of the living, not the dead. Perhaps this is why the God of all who knows every stand of hair on your head is capable of forgetting people. This is also why people need to come to faith and receive the Holy Spirit now, while you're still alive and known. IMO the Holy Spirit is essential to access heaven while still in this world, and to remain known. Therefore blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin.
     
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  12. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    The real problem seems to be self-perception. There are people in this forum who hadn't been able to RE-slander an individual BECAUSE THEY WERE IN CHURCH!!! (That was the most outlandish thing I'd heard in a LONG time.) It's like that verse "every man is right in his own eyes", so every man thinks he's a Christian, even though he may reject all that GOD, JESUS, and the HOLY SPIRIT are, ... but he's a Christian (capital "C").

    And is this Forum, LIARS can slander the TRUTH, but we can't "criticize" the LIARS? So where's the Christianity which Jesus exercised in Matthew 15; and Jesus called Peter SATAN?!? -- Jesus would have been expelled from this Forum for violating THE RULES!!!

    Yeah, it's a good thing my hope and salvation rests in Jesus, and not man. :)


    And I'm still chuckling to myself having a capital "C"/small "c" discussion. :rolleyes:
    Bobby Jo
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
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  13. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for you time and clarity.

    I do not believe the creed itself defines a Christian.
    I know that it is far too broad to say the heart does. Or , if we are hearing from Father daily in our heart...true, but somewhat too open, I can see that.
    The Cross, The Blood, and The resurrection are central.

    I hear what you are saying, but, that wording about "with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified." I disagree.

    I can see and agree with your quote :- <But since the triune Godhead is indeed one God, when we worship God, the Holy Spirit is included.> Yes...but the creed wording is - " is worshipped and glorified." Which to me separates Him out.
    God is worshipped we know, Jesus is to be worshipped we know..
    I don't get on my knees and knowingly worship each one including the Holy Spirit separately.

    Maybe it is just me and I am having a hard time getting across what I am poorly trying to say here.

    Does all this nit-picking draw a line against some Christians, into the non-christian box?
     
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  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that you have no credibility whatsoever, since everyone who rejects your nonsense is a liar.Just like everyone who is critical of the Catholic Church is a liar for Bread of Life.

    And your obnoxious rants are all over this forum.
     
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  15. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    EXCELLENT!!

    Thank you so much for that clarity.
    thumbup1[1].gif
     
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  16. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    ... And you just added another one to your long list ...

    Bobby Jo


    To All,
    It's too bad that when a person can't defend their theology, they assail their opponent. So does that make them a Christian, or a christian, or a Sadducee, or a Pharisee, or a -- fill in the blank --?

    Bobby Jo
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  17. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You can forget about all the nit-picking. The apostle John clearly draws the line between who is a true Christian and who is not.

    2 JOHN 1
    7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

    What does this mean: that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh?
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God [Theos] was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16 found only in the KJV)

    So those who deny that Jesus is God are not Christians.
     
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  18. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Amen for sure. But I doubt they would want to claim to be so! :)
     
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  19. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I have a hard time with this because of communication. I also don't like the question.

    As you Helen @"ByGrace" already know, the definition of Christian or christian for people is all mixed up. The word itself while used in the scriptures has no easy definition in the scriptures to which every reader of the same scriptures would agree. Like @Episkopos indicated when a person says he is a Christian [or small "c"] I take his word for it until he gives me reason to do otherwise. Even if I had doubts about a person's declaration about himself, I would still strive to keep my mouth shut on the subject unless given a good reason [hopefully a nudge from the Holy Spirit] to open it.

    Assuming that a Christian must be a follower of Jesus, to make any judgment [within me... not necessarily spoken to other people] about whether a person is, or is not, should require observation or discernment or even revelation. Where should I draw the line between being in favor or being against a person fitting the above simple definition? Unless it is shown to be necessary, I don't draw a line.

    I back away from specifics on a particular person on the one hand as usually not being in my job description; but I also back away from the hypothetical unless there is good reason to be so definite generally.

    I do NOT endorse the Nicene (or any other) Creed. Rather I endorse the written scriptures as they are correctly interpreted by the Holy Spirit... The only place we are likely to find that interpretation is in a man's heart as brought to Life there. Who but God has access to all of that information about each and every person?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  20. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Saviour? If one believes that, then he comes to Christ as Lord and Saviour. That is the Christian.

    Stranger
     
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