Galatians 5

[H. Richard]

Ok, H. Richard. I enjoy discussing scripture so I am going to give you another shot. But please stay civil this time. I said nothing offensive last time and was polite with my responses, but you nevertheless went off on me like I had rained on your parade.

My first question is this: Do you regard "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" as a law, or no?

If it is a law you must follow then you will never get to heaven. Have you ever considered that it was Jesus' love for mankind that fulfilled that law FOR US?

You have asked this question for me to say yes or no. What purpose will my answer serve? Do you have an agenda that you wish to use?

Thank you for this opportunity to reply to you and if I go off on you it is because I am not fooled by man. To many on this forum have agendas that require them to service their pride at the expense of others.

 

[H. Richard]

They who are in Adam...yes. But do you believe that Jesus sinned? What about those in Christ?

Your doctrine makes Christ of NO effect in the lives of they who enter into Him

Why?

No experience of entering into Him. If anyone actually does enter into Christ they know what i t means to be liberated from the curse of Adam...and walk in the sane grace that Jesus did...which is without spot or wrinkle of sin.

So by our testimony one an tell if one has entered in or not.

Many deceive others and say they no longer sin in the flesh. That is easy to say. Many go around saying they are better than those who sin but to me, since I know all men sin in the flesh, they are just being hypocritical.

I see you saying you no longer sin in the flesh and God says all men sin in the flesh. I will believe God; not you. I also see you wanting to be like God. Isn't that what Satan said to Eve; that she could be like God? I see you using Satan's argument.

 

[H. Richard]

If sinful mankind has any desire or hope to be saved then he better repent of his sins for he cannot be saved in his sin, he cannot carry a single sin into heaven with him. If one can be saved in their sins, then there was no need for Christ to die and shed His blood.

WRONG. your statement is totally backwards. It is because mankind lives in sinful bodies that Jesus had to shed His blood to pay for their sins of the flesh.

You forget that Jesus has already paid for the sins of the children of God and they are sinless in spirit. Flesh and blood will never enter into heaven.

 

[H. Richard]

Romans 10:3-11
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 or, "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

Notice the word “who” in verses 6&7. What is meant by these verses is what man, by his own efforts, can do these things?

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
NKJV

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

WRONG. your statement is totally backwards. It is because mankind lives in sinful bodies that Jesus had to shed His blood to pay for their sins of the flesh.

You forget that Jesus has already paid for the sins of the children of God and they are sinless in spirit. Flesh and blood will never enter into heaven.

No impenitent person will be saved, Jesus Himself said to repent or perish, Luke 13:3 which makes salvation CONDITIONAL not UNconditional as OSAS wrongly claims.

For those who are Christians, forgiveness and having sins cleansed is CONDITIONAL per 1 John 1:7-10:

IF (conditional word) the Christian continues to walk in the light then the blood of Christ washes away all sins

IF (conditional word) the Christian confesses his sins then he will be for given and his sins cleansed.

The sins a Christian commits threfore are not automatically unconditionally forgiven no matter what the Christian does.

 

[H. Richard]

No impenitent person will be saved, Jesus Himself said to repent or perish, Luke 13:3 which makes salvation CONDITIONAL not UNconditional as OSAS wrongly claims.

For those who are Christians, forgiveness and having sins cleansed is CONDITIONAL per 1 John 1:7-10:

IF (conditional word) the Christian continues to walk in the light then the blood of Christ washes away all sins

IF (conditional word) the Christian confesses his sins then he will be for given and his sins cleansed.

The sins a Christian commits threfore are not automatically unconditionally forgiven no matter what the Christian does.

There is no joy in what you believe. What you seem to believe is that a person has to save him/her self by what they do. To believe that is to NOT BELIEVE in what Jesus did on the cross and that it was not a free gift from God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

There is no joy in what you believe. What you seem to believe is that a person has to save him/her self by what they do. To believe that is to NOT BELIEVE in what Jesus did on the cross and that it was not a free gift from God.

The Bible clearly teaches man has a role in his own salvation:

Acts of the Apostles 2:40 - save yourselves
1 Timothy 4:16 - save thyself
2 Corinthians 7:1 - cleanse ourselves
1 Corinthians 6:11 - you had yourselves washed
1 Peter 1:22 - ye have purified your souls
James 4:8 - cleanse your hands....purify your hearts
2 Timothy 2:21 purge himself
2 Corinthians 13:5 examine yourselves
2 Peter 1:10 give diligence

God does not UNconditionally owe man salvation regardless of what man does. Grace whereby man can be saved cost God His Son and cost Christ His life. If God's grace cost man nothing then it is cheap to man.

A German named Bonhoeffer once wrote about 'cheap grace' "....Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession...Cheap grace is grace without discipleship,..."

Cheap grace is when a man wants all the benefits there are to being a Christian.....without it costing him anything, without him having to change the kind of life he lives. Benefits without cost = cheap. If Jesus has "done it all" where man has nothing to do, where man has no cost to bear then grace is cheap to man. If there is "nothing" the Christian can do to lose his salvation then nothing means nothing, cheap.

 

[Davy]

But assurance of faith (as in John's First Epistle) and eternal security (as in Romans 8) are thoroughly part of what John and Paul teach in the New Testament, and consistent with what the Lord Jesus taught in the Gospels.

And that assurance is based on what? It's based on our continued walk with Jesus and not falling away.

As much as I don't want to, because it confuses so many, I'll bring the idea of predestination into the discussion. Some New Testament Scripture is specifically about a group of Christ's elect that were 'called' and also 'chosen'. Not all of us are 'chosen', like our Lord Jesus said (Matthew 22:14).

Those who were 'chosen' cannot fall away. God will intervene in their lives to cause His chosen ones to do the duty and service He has preordained for them. Jonah and Apostle Paul are prime Bible examples.

How many did our Lord Jesus go up to and say, "follow Me", and they got up and followed, and then were promised to sit upon thrones in His coming Kingdom ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel? Only His 12 Apostles.

So we should be able to recognize that Christ's truly elect are not just called like us, but they are also chosen to fulfill specific duties by Jesus to be a leadership for His Church. Paul (Saul) would write most of the New Testament Epistles by his chosen duty given from Jesus, and was overseer of the early Churches.

John 17:18-21
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
KJV

Jesus was in the garden praying just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified. He prayed for His elect sent Apostles there, but also for "them also which shall believe on Me through their word", ie., for those also that would believe by the preaching of The Gospel by His sent Apostles. That shows a distinction between His Apostles who were sent like He was, and the rest of believers on Jesus that are called only.

Because those of us who are 'called' only, we can fall away from Jesus by our own choosing, and He will allow it.

But for those who were 'sent', and thus 'chosen' like His Apostles, these cannot... fall away. Jesus will intervene directly in their lives and cause these to do their preordained duty they were 'sent' and 'chosen' for. And they shall not fail.

When someone who is 'called' only, like most of us, when we stay in Christ, we become 'one' with The Father and The Son along with His chosen sent servants, and are thus with His chosen are His elect.

That is why the Apostles in their NT Epistles were constantly warning the called brethren to be careful to not fall away, to always be on guard. If we all... were 'chosen' sent ones as they, then they would have no need to warn the rest of us against falling away. The fact that the majority of us are 'called' only is shown by their NT warnings...

Apostle Paul towards the end of his commission:

Acts 20:29-31
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
KJV

 

[GodsGrace]

[Romans 6:1-7 NASB] 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with [Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him,] in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

• I think that when God inspired Paul to write “so that we would no longer be slaves to sin”, that he used the word δουλεύω (douleúō = “to be a slave to”) because He meant “slave” and he used the word ἁμαρτία (hamartía = “a sin”) because He meant “sin”. So when God said “we would no longer be slaves to sin” what he REALLY meant is that we were (formerly) “slaves” to “sin”, but now we are not.

[Romans 6:15-19 NASB] 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in [further] lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

• I think that when God inspired Paul to write “you became slaves of righteousness”, that he used the word δουλεύω (douleúō = “to be a slave to”) because He meant “slave” and he used the word δικαιοσύνη (dikaiosýnē = “equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification; righteousness”) because He meant “righteousness”. So when God said “you became slaves of righteousnes” what he REALLY meant is that we were (formerly) “slaves to sin”, but now we are “slaves of righteousness”.

That you claim these verses do not mean what they say because ... (insert opinion and follow with scripture pong) ... is why I hold the opinion that it is you who misunderstands those scriptures.

In post 144 you said that we do not choose to save ourselves.
I replied with Romans 6:16...that we are SLAVES to the one we present ourselves to.

This was to show that we PRESENT OURSELVES TO GOD OR THE EVIL ONE.
In the same post 144 I went on to show you how Jesus WAS speaking to the APOSTLES in John 15:16...you did not show me that He WAS NOT speaking to about them..but only stated that I always say Jesus is speaking to the apostles.
WRONG...He was in this case and in Mathew 28:19-20......this is a known fact.

Of course, you couldn't answer to that, so you picked up on the word
SLAVE.

In post 146 YOU said that we are slaves to satan or slaves to righteousness.
Trying to make the point that we are SLAVES TO GOD.

You finished your statements in 148, to which I replied in post 149...
In which I stated that we are not SLAVES to God but SONS of God.
BECAUSE God does not force us to obey Him and be a Son...
and I showed verses that support that we are sons of God.

I replied with post no. 151, which no longer spoke of slaves or sons.

In post 158 the personal comments begin and you decide to latch on to the word SLAVE because, apparently, you didn't care to respond to my replies to you.

1. It's a good medicine for you that you feel frustrated that I tried to explain the word SLAVE to you as opposed to SON.

I find that calvinists do this all the time.
ALL does not mean ALL
EVERYONE does not mean EVERYONE
The WORLD does not mean the WORLD...
etc.

As you see it's VERY frustrating,,,perhaps YOU can stop explaining away words the way you THINK I did.

And here the convo ended.

I addressed all your verses.
You do not address mine.

I guess it must be difficult to go against what scripture plainly states.
This is due to the fact that when a theology is not correct...nothing makes sense.

So I guess our conversation is over.
No time for personal arguing.

 

[GodsGrace]

And that assurance is based on what? It's based on our continued walk with Jesus and not falling away.

As much as I don't want to, because it confuses so many, I'll bring the idea of predestination into the discussion. Some New Testament Scripture is specifically about a group of Christ's elect that were 'called' and also 'chosen'. Not all of us are 'chosen', like our Lord Jesus said (Matthew 22:14).

Those who were 'chosen' cannot fall away. God will intervene in their lives to cause His chosen ones to do the duty and service He has preordained for them. Jonah and Apostle Paul are prime Bible examples.

How many did our Lord Jesus go up to and say, "follow Me", and they got up and followed, and then were promised to sit upon thrones in His coming Kingdom ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel? Only His 12 Apostles.

So we should be able to recognize that Christ's truly elect are not just called like us, but they are also chosen to fulfill specific duties by Jesus to be a leadership for His Church. Paul (Saul) would write most of the New Testament Epistles by his chosen duty given from Jesus, and was overseer of the early Churches.

John 17:18-21
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
KJV

Jesus was in the garden praying just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified. He prayed for His elect sent Apostles there, but also for "them also which shall believe on Me through their word", ie., for those also that would believe by the preaching of The Gospel by His sent Apostles. That shows a distinction between His Apostles who were sent like He was, and the rest of believers on Jesus that are called only.

Because those of us who are 'called' only, we can fall away from Jesus by our own choosing, and He will allow it.

But for those who were 'sent', and thus 'chosen' like His Apostles, these cannot... fall away. Jesus will intervene directly in their lives and cause these to do their preordained duty they were 'sent' and 'chosen' for. And they shall not fail.

When someone who is 'called' only, like most of us, when we stay in Christ, we become 'one' with The Father and The Son along with His chosen sent servants, and are thus with His chosen are His elect.

That is why the Apostles in their NT Epistles were constantly warning the called brethren to be careful to not fall away, to always be on guard. If we all... were 'chosen' sent ones as they, then they would have no need to warn the rest of us against falling away. The fact that the majority of us are 'called' only is shown by their NT warnings...

Apostle Paul towards the end of his commission:

Acts 20:29-31
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
KJV

Actually what you've posted is correct.
You're going to get a lot of disagreement however because what you say is not easily understood.

I do have a problem with Judas Ischariot.
How does HE fit into this?
Jesus chose him and he turned out to be the betrayer.
Didn't Jesus know he would?
He sent him out with the other 11 to heal and preach (Mathew 10).

 

[GodsGrace]

Then the moment we are no longer in Christ we do not have life any more? Then it wasn't eternal...



Our eternal life begins the moment we believe. Consider...

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.




Jeremiah 32:38-40 would indicate to us that when we enter into everlasting life, one of the things the Lord does in us is that He produces the fear of the Lord...and this for ever fear means that we shall not depart from Him...

Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.



More accurately, because they were workers of iniquity.



We are saved unto obedience to the will of God. Because obedience translates into doing good works. And salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:9 and context)



They were lost for that they were trusting in their works to save them.



Yep.



Yep.



It means that the Lord will preserve those who are truly born of Him, in holiness (1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17; Hebrews 10:14).

Right. The life is not eternal until you get what you were promised when you die.
At that point, your life becomes eternal.

 

[GodsGrace]

ha, really i was more trying to make a point, but yeh.
Coffee is alla sudden freaking me out now? Used to need at least one cup "with hair" in the morning, now i cant drink it like that any more, just in the last few weeks. Scared to even try a cappi lol, man i love cappis too, in the winter esp.

All i can figure is the warnings on omega 3, about ingesting it and coffee together? Never bothered me before though, but i am on all-veg O3 now too, cant quite stand (the ideal) 1:2 ratio yet, but i'm prolly at :3 or :4.
View attachment 6896
this has been dubbed "christmas porridge" i guess bc the chia seeds look kinda green, not really showing here though, plus the obv red quinoa. If you ate that bowl right there you would not sleep tonight, guaranteed! almost. Oh, i'm hearing now that i missed the joke, and the present is insomnia. HA!

Here coffee is a necessary part of life.
Omega 3 is taken with it...even my doctor does.
(this does not mean it's right).

 

[Davy]

Actually what you've posted is correct.
You're going to get a lot of disagreement however because what you say is not easily understood.

I do have a problem with Judas Ischariot.
How does HE fit into this?
Jesus chose him and he turned out to be the betrayer.
Didn't Jesus know he would?
He sent him out with the other 11 to heal and preach (Mathew 10).

It happened so the OT prophecy would be fulfilled.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV

Our Lord Jesus knew all along that Judas would betray Him (John 6:64).

 

[Davy]

Actually what you've posted is correct.
You're going to get a lot of disagreement however because what you say is not easily understood.

I do have a problem with Judas Ischariot.
How does HE fit into this?
Jesus chose him and he turned out to be the betrayer.
Didn't Jesus know he would?
He sent him out with the other 11 to heal and preach (Mathew 10).

Also, do a deeper word study on the word 'Ischariot'.

 

[GodsGrace]

It happened so the OT prophecy would be fulfilled.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV

Our Lord Jesus knew all along that Judas would betray Him (John 6:64).

Why did He send Judas out with the other 11 to preach and heal?
I don't think Jesus knew all along that Judas would betray Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Also, do a deeper word study on the word 'Ischariot'.

It means where he was from.
Like Paul of Tarsus.
Mary of Magdelene.

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course different persons understand verses differently.

2Co 3:12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2Pe 1:20, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Matthew 7:21 they were trusting in their own works to save them. Had they been doing what God says to do, then they could have been saved...it takes DOING the will of God to enter the kingdom and not one doing his own works. Romans 10:3 those Jews were lost for they were doing their own works rather than obey God's commands which would have saved them.

There is a difference between one doing his own works and one doing God's works, the 'faith only' crowd does not want to see that difference.

In Ephesians 2:9, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 4:1-8, we find that the scripture clearly teaches that we are not saved by works. It does not specify our own works in any of these passages. We are, therefore, not saved by works, period. We are not saved because of doing God's works, is what this means. The reality is that we are saved by grace through faith; and while a living faith will always produce works if given the opportunity, it should be clear that it is faith alone, apart from works (see Romans 4:5-6) that saves.

and God says all men sin in the flesh.

Where does God say that?

To believe that is to NOT BELIEVE in what Jesus did on the cross and that it was not a free gift from God.

Yes indeed; salvation is a free gift from God. What you must understand is that the gift is righteousness (Romans 5:17); and that righteousness is a practical thing by nature (Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6, 1 John 3:7)

Right. The life is not eternal until you get what you were promised when you die.
At that point, your life becomes eternal.

Again, I would point you to John 5:24...

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here in this verse, Jesus begins by saying, Verily, verily, I say unto you... which indicates the absolute nature of what He is about to say next.

He then says that if we hear His word and believe on Him who sent Him, we have everlasting life...not "shall have" as concerning, when you die, but have, as concerning, now, in the moment that you believe. It then says that you shall not come into condemnation. This is absolute terminology of something that is certain in the future. It is impossible for the recipient of this promise to be ever condemned. Finally, they have passed from death unto life. The fact that they have passed from death unto life, means that it has happened in the past, not in the future, when we die. We once were dead, now we are alive. And the nature of the life which we now have, is that it is everlasting life. Which means that it can't ever come to an end: if it ever came to an end, the nature of it would be temporal rather than everlasting.

So, all of this together tells me that the moment I believe, I am eternally secure in Christ. I have everlasting life...my life can't ever come to an end; and it began the moment I believed.

 

[Episkopos]

Many deceive others and say they no longer sin in the flesh. That is easy to say. Many go around saying they are better than those who sin but to me, since I know all men sin in the flesh, they are just being hypocritical.

I see you saying you no longer sin in the flesh and God says all men sin in the flesh. I will believe God; not you. I also see you wanting to be like God. Isn't that what Satan said to Eve; that she could be like God? I see you using Satan's argument.

The deception is to deny that in Christ is no sin. And this is not a small error. A sin against the Spirit...by teaching lies....is far worse than the sins of the flesh.

 

[bbyrd009]

Here coffee is a necessary part of life.
Omega 3 is taken with it...even my doctor does.
(this does not mean it's right).

ha sure makes for a speedy start to your day tho huh lol.
as ive approached 3 or 2:1 O ratios the caffeine just suddenly got too much, esp on an empty stomach

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In Ephesians 2:9, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 4:1-8, we find that the scripture clearly teaches that we are not saved by works. It does not specify our own works in any of these passages. We are, therefore, not saved by works, period. We are not saved because of doing God's works, is what this means. The reality is that we are saved by grace through faith; and while a living faith will always produce works if given the opportunity, it should be clear that it is faith alone, apart from works (see Romans 4:5-6) that saves.

In context, those passages show that works of merit or works required by the OT law of Moses do not save. None of those passages eliminate the need for obedience to the will of God. In fact, Romans 6:17-18 Paul shows the necessity of obeying from the heart to be justified.

We are saved through faith per Ephesians 2:8 but a NT faith INCLUDES obedience. A NT faith void of obedience is dead being alone, James 2:17.


Romans 10:10----------- believes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness
Romans 6:16----------- obedience>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unto righteousness

Since one believes unto righteousness and obedience is unto righteousness and there is just one way be saved, no alternatives, then at NT belief MUST include obedience else the Bible contains contradictions.


Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

The phrase "works of righteousness we have done" refers to men doing their own righteousness instead of obeying God's righteousness. Just as those lost Jews in Romans 10:3 went about establishing "their own righteousness" instead of obeying God which would have saved them.