Galatians 5

[GodsGrace]

But assurance of faith (as in John's First Epistle) and eternal security (as in Romans 8) are thoroughly part of what John and Paul teach in the New Testament, and consistent with what the Lord Jesus taught in the Gospels.

No Farouk.
The above is not correct.
I'm not going to post any verses because you never answer me anyway.

However, I do wish you'd just read the entire N.T. all on your own and see what beliefs you end up with.

We are warned all through scripture that our salvation can be lost by falling away from the faith...by abandoning God.

It's good to know the truth so you could be careful that this does NOT happen to YOU.

If you want to discuss, we can, but I know you won't want to.

 

[Helen]

Both sides cannot be right...one side has to be wrong.
The Early Church Fathers DID NOT believe in eternal security.
Paul even said that he does not want to be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

WHAT!!!!
Did you really say that????

So you just throw out "as wrong" the chunk of scriptures that 'you' dont like?
Grailhunter posted two lists of verses...so you make void the list that you don't like...as it must be wrong, because both can't be right!!!! Wow!

So if you can freely dismiss one of the list of verse...how can you possibly say that you "Believe the bible"...you obviously don't!!!
You can't have it both ways.

Of course both list of verses is correct.
It is once again a case of - ' which end of the horse are you describing'

Where are you standing?
The answer obviously is BOTH are correct.

No one can cherry pick verses and build a 'doctrine ' that they like on it.
We have to take the whole...or throw out the lot.

As I was saying to someone just today....
<Quote-
All these silly argument come because one is speaking from the condition of the Christian and one is speaking from the position of the Christian in Christ. But the answer is BOTH, not 'Either V Or '....

Some can't even see both in the word...they just stick to their favourite cherry picked verses and argue from that point.

It does make a person wonder what kind of "teachers" they sat under!!!! Yikes!

But no one can really blame our teachers and old pastors ...the responsibility is still on us , to 'search and find if these things be'..
The Holy Spirit is still the best 'opener of God's Word',.. if and when we get quiet enough before Him.

One list of verses is from the perspective of our condition ( as Paul says in Romans 7 ) "condition"

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? "

..and the other list is from the perspective is our position in Christ.
where Paul says..
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
And then he goes on into the victory of our position , living in Roams 8.


....H

P.S. *A reason why I do NOT quote a lot of scripture... anyone can argue anything by cherry picking their favourite verses to argue their point.,..

Using scriptures to argue with is pointless.

 

[Helen]

But assurance of faith (as in John's First Epistle) and eternal security (as in Romans 8) are thoroughly part of what John and Paul teach in the New Testament, and consistent with what the Lord Jesus taught in the Gospels.

Amen! Good word.

 

[atpollard]

Are you aware that the majority of Christianity agrees with my exegesis?

[Matthew 7:13-14 NASB] 13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Quality, not quantity.

 

[Grailhunter]

[Matthew 7:13-14 NASB] 13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Quality, not quantity.

That could be a little concerning "few" a lot of time has past and a lot of souls. Because of Revelation, some believe that only 144,000 out of billions will make to Heaven. Of course nearly all in the NT beloved they were living in the last days, never months or years and now it it 2000 years gone by and still waiting. Maybe that is how God counts. Don't bother hitting me on this because the whole thing is humor.

 

[bbyrd009]

Hi bb
I know what you mean...it's interesting.
You CANNOT sin.
Not meaning YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO SIN...
but meaning
YOU BETTER NOT SIN.

checking my Ital bible....
It would seem to have to do with ability.

I always thought it had to do with the sin nature AND
living a life of sin (rather than sinning at times).

hi gg, youre missed around here
um im stoned right now so i better shut up lol
understand why the pimps and hos are beating etcetc imo
sin is a perception generated by judgement rather than having an attitude of acceptance and forgiveness and gratitude and overlooking a matter imo. oh ya said i was gonna shut up

 

[atpollard]

Maybe it's YOU that misunderstands scripture?
Why does it necessarily have to be me?

[Romans 6:1-7 NASB] 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with [Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him,] in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

• I think that when God inspired Paul to write “so that we would no longer be slaves to sin”, that he used the word δουλεύω (douleúō = “to be a slave to”) because He meant “slave” and he used the word ἁμαρτία (hamartía = “a sin”) because He meant “sin”. So when God said “we would no longer be slaves to sin” what he REALLY meant is that we were (formerly) “slaves” to “sin”, but now we are not.

[Romans 6:15-19 NASB] 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in [further] lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

• I think that when God inspired Paul to write “you became slaves of righteousness”, that he used the word δουλεύω (douleúō = “to be a slave to”) because He meant “slave” and he used the word δικαιοσύνη (dikaiosýnē = “equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification; righteousness”) because He meant “righteousness”. So when God said “you became slaves of righteousnes” what he REALLY meant is that we were (formerly) “slaves to sin”, but now we are “slaves of righteousness”.

That you claim these verses do not mean what they say because ... (insert opinion and follow with scripture pong) ... is why I hold the opinion that it is you who misunderstands those scriptures.

 

[bbyrd009]

That could be a little concerning "few" a lot of time has past and a lot of souls

wow could you rephrase this or put in the little thingies the puncuation or something here ty. what could be a little concerning?

some believe that only 144,000 out of billions will make to Heaven.

you think anyone will um make it to heaven, Gh?

some believe that only 144,000 out of billions will make to Heaven.

you think anyone will um make it to heaven, Gh?

still waiting

ha. says it all i guess

Maybe that is how God counts. Don't bother hitting me on this because the whole thing is humor.

mwa-a-a

 

[Grailhunter]

wow could you rephrase this or put in the little thingies the puncuation or something here ty. what could be a little concerning?

Read Matthew 7:13-14

 

[bbyrd009]

Read Matthew 7:13-14

ah ok, but if you would just rephrase the sentence too ty and gnite

 

[Grailhunter]

I don't do island talk. If I go down there on holiday you can teach me.

 

[justbyfaith]

We have eternal life for as long as we are IN CHRIST.

Then the moment we are no longer in Christ we do not have life any more? Then it wasn't eternal...

Our eternal life begins after we die...

Our eternal life begins the moment we believe. Consider...

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

However, our eternal life CANNOT begin now because, as shown just by the few verses we're discussin...we could decide to abandon God in the future and then we would NO LONGER have eternal life.

Jeremiah 32:38-40 would indicate to us that when we enter into everlasting life, one of the things the Lord does in us is that He produces the fear of the Lord...and this for ever fear means that we shall not depart from Him...

Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

NO. He clearly says it's because they were LAWLESS.

More accurately, because they were workers of iniquity.

But we are saved by obedience to the will of God,

We are saved unto obedience to the will of God. Because obedience translates into doing good works. And salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:9 and context)

I have seen on various forums the "faith only" crowd argue that those in Matthew 7 were lost for they were doing works.

They were lost for that they were trusting in their works to save them.

You think you have eternal life now?

Yep.

You're sure you'll still be saved when you're 90?

Yep.

What does perseverance of the saints mean?

It means that the Lord will preserve those who are truly born of Him, in holiness (1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17; Hebrews 10:14).

 

[GodsGrace]

WHAT!!!!
Did you really say that????

So you just throw out "as wrong" the chunk of scriptures that 'you' dont like?
Grailhunter posted two lists of verses...so you make void the list that you don't like...as it must be wrong, because both can't be right!!!! Wow!

So if you can freely dismiss one of the list of verse...how can you possibly say that you "Believe the bible"...you obviously don't!!!
You can't have it both ways.

Of course both list of verses is correct.
It is once again a case of - ' which end of the horse are you describing'

Where are you standing?
The answer obviously is BOTH are correct.

No one can cherry pick verses and build a 'doctrine ' that they like on it.
We have to take the whole...or throw out the lot.

As I was saying to someone just today....
<Quote-
All these silly argument come because one is speaking from the condition of the Christian and one is speaking from the position of the Christian in Christ. But the answer is BOTH, not 'Either V Or '....

Some can't even see both in the word...they just stick to their favourite cherry picked verses and argue from that point.

It does make a person wonder what kind of "teachers" they sat under!!!! Yikes!

But no one can really blame our teachers and old pastors ...the responsibility is still on us , to 'search and find if these things be'..
The Holy Spirit is still the best 'opener of God's Word',.. if and when we get quiet enough before Him.

One list of verses is from the perspective of our condition ( as Paul says in Romans 7 ) "condition"

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? "

..and the other list is from the perspective is our position in Christ.
where Paul says..
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
And then he goes on into the victory of our position , living in Roams 8.


....H

P.S. *A reason why I do NOT quote a lot of scripture... anyone can argue anything by cherry picking their favourite verses to argue their point.,..

Using scriptures to argue with is pointless.

Hi BG,
If you've been reading along, I think you must have read that the question of eternal security has been going on since even before Jesus was born.

You've also heard me say many times that our doctrine does not save us.
Jesus saves us.

BUT,,, that is correct - both sides cannot be right.
Either we CANNOT EVER lose our salvation
or
It is POSSIBLE to lose our salvation.

How could they both be right? I don't read anything about position in the bible.
This is a term made up by man. We can't be POSITIONALLY saved in Christ
AND be living a life of sin as Paul describes in many passages beginning in Romans,,,I'm sure you also know the scriptures; there's lists of things we cannot do in every epistle of his.

So it would seem to me that our salvation is based on reality....on our condition.
I NEVER said we're not forgiven for sins we repent of....

As to cherry picking...it's not correct that this term be used.
I know the entire bible (except for Revelation and I've forgotten a good chunk of the O.T.) and hope that my time here helps me to remember everything.
We pick verses that support our position....if we don't use scripture, then we're only stating our own opinion. Quoting verses is good for those reading along and for discussion.

Of course different persons understand verses differently.
This is because we each want to be our own theologian.
I'm not my own theologian....I've learned from two churches and depend
on what I've learned.

Paul himself says that we are not to continue in sin so that grace may abound.
It seems like common sense to me.

Also, I find on these forums that if a person just says one thing a little off,,,they're branded as believing one never sins. This is also wrong. We sin, but it has been taken care of by God from the beginning of time.

Do you believe the moral law is still in effect?
If so, what's different about the New Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant?
(The answer is in Romans 8, which you've said is positional)

You said this above:
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

That sounds very much like you're condoning sin!
I know you're not...but read it again.
With your mind you serve God...
But with the flesh you serve the law of sin.

What would a new Christian think by reading this?

 

[GodsGrace]

[Matthew 7:13-14 NASB] 13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Quality, not quantity.

I said in my post to you that you'd say this.

So what does this mean?
What orthodoxy believes is going to lead persons to hell?

You've never yet told me what the church believed BEFORE Luther/Calvin and the others, Knox, etc.

Were those in the one thousand five hundred years before them ALL wrong or all WRONG?

Could you post some early fathers that believed in predestination? That would be interesting to see. Just don't pick any gnostics because calvinism is a bit gnostic since that theology thinks they understand things about God that no other theology believes.

 

[GodsGrace]

hi gg, youre missed around here
um im stoned right now so i better shut up lol
understand why the pimps and hos are beating etcetc imo
sin is a perception generated by judgement rather than having an attitude of acceptance and forgiveness and gratitude and overlooking a matter imo. oh ya said i was gonna shut up

Oh go have some strong coffee and don't get stoned !

It puts you in a world that doesn't exist.
When you come back...it's CULTURE SHOCK!

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh go have some strong coffee and don't get stoned !

It puts you in a world that doesn't exist.
When you come back...it's CULTURE SHOCK!

ha, really i was more trying to make a point, but yeh.
Coffee is alla sudden freaking me out now? Used to need at least one cup "with hair" in the morning, now i cant drink it like that any more, just in the last few weeks. Scared to even try a cappi lol, man i love cappis too, in the winter esp.

All i can figure is the warnings on omega 3, about ingesting it and coffee together? Never bothered me before though, but i am on all-veg O3 now too, cant quite stand (the ideal) 1:2 ratio yet, but i'm prolly at :3 or :4.

this has been dubbed "christmas porridge" i guess bc the chia seeds look kinda green, not really showing here though, plus the obv red quinoa. If you ate that bowl right there you would not sleep tonight, guaranteed! almost. Oh, i'm hearing now that i missed the joke, and the present is insomnia. HA!

 

[H. Richard]

So your position is that the Christian can do these works of the flesh (adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like) and still be unconditionally saved anyway??!?!?!

Since all of mankind sins in the flesh you had better hope that they can.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

They were lost for that they were trusting in their works to save them.

Matthew 7:21 they were trusting in their own works to save them. Had they been doing what God says to do, then they could have been saved...it takes DOING the will of God to enter the kingdom and not one doing his own works. Romans 10:3 those Jews were lost for they were doing their own works rather than obey God's commands which would have saved them.

There is a difference between one doing his own works and one doing God's works, the 'faith only' crowd does not want to see that difference.

 

[Episkopos]

Since all of mankind sins in the flesh you had better hope that they can.

They who are in Adam...yes. But do you believe that Jesus sinned? What about those in Christ?

Your doctrine makes Christ of NO effect in the lives of they who enter into Him

Why?

No experience of entering into Him. If anyone actually does enter into Christ they know what it means to be liberated from the curse of Adam...and walk in the same grace that Jesus did...which is without spot or wrinkle of sin.

So by our testimony one an tell if one has entered in or not.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Since all of mankind sins in the flesh you had better hope that they can.

If sinful mankind has any desire or hope to be saved then he better repent of his sins for he cannot be saved in his sin, he cannot carry a single sin into heaven with him. If one can be saved in their sins, then there was no need for Christ to die and shed His blood.