2 Peter 1:20
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
Notice that the N.T. always uses the word BELIEVE.
Present Tense.
IF you believe when at death,,,THEN you shall have eternal life.
Galatians 5
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2 Peter 1:20
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
Notice that the N.T. always uses the word BELIEVE.
Present Tense.
IF you believe when at death,,,THEN you shall have eternal life.
You have it in the reverse order. We are justified unto obedience, not the other way around. Therefore, we do not obey in order to be justified; we are justified in order that we might become obedient.
Again, none of this tells us that our obedience saves us. It rather teaches us when we are born again it is unto a life of obedience.
You don't want to put the cart before the horse. Obedience (the cart) is pulled along by our salvation in Jesus (the horse)
The righteousness of God, as opposed to our own righteousness, is the righteousness of faith, as opposed to the righteousness which is of the law (Philippians 3:9). In this, faith produces an inward transformation. The inside of the cup and platter are cleansed so that the outside may be clean also. It is not the righteousness of works that we do, whether they are works of our own making or works that we do for the Lord (the works of God). In all reality, the work of God is to believe on Him whom He sent (John 5:28-29). But outward works of righteousness will not save us, not even if they are done for God and not even if they are what might be called the works of God (as things that we might do to earn our salvation). To submit to the righteousness of God means to place your faith in Jesus Christ. It means that you have not stumbled at that stumblingsotne (see Romans 9:30-33). It brings about an inward transformation rather than being a righteousness of works. You begin to love people from the heart. Yes, works will result from that. However, those works do not save you. What saves you is the faith that produced the inward transformation in your heart and character.
Just take some scissors and cut John 5:24 out of your Bible; because this is what you have effectively done by holding to your belief on this matter. (and just remember that there are consequences for this (see Revelation 22:19)).
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The exposition of the verse in question is not a private interpretation. I have made it quite public. Of course it is subject to scrutiny. If you can show that my exposition is inaccurate based on the text, then by all means do so. But if, in my exposition, I am merely repeating what is spoken by the text, then you have a problem; because you are rejecting the truth of holy scripture in holding to your opinion.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You said I would quote Matthew 7:13-14? Really? Could you remind me which post you made this prediction in?
It means that TRUTH is not determined by a majority vote.
Otherwise the world would still be flat and Buddha would be correct.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Paul said in Romans 6:16 "obedience UNTO righteousness" that is obedience leads one to being righteous, one is obedient in order to be righteous.
Paul did NOT say one obeys because one already is righteous. This would be putting the cart before the horse.
Romans 10:10 Paul says one "believeth UNTO righteousness". Again, belief leads one to being saved, one believes in order to be saved.
One does not believe because they are already saved, this again would be putting the cart before the horse.
Romans 6:17-18, the order of events as Paul puts them:
1) were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin (justified)
Again, obedience BEFORE justification. There is no example in the NT of one first justified BEFORE he obeyed the will of God.
Numerous verse throughout the NT that put obedience BEFORE justification.
The Bible is its own best commentary:
Romans 10:10----------- believes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness
Romans 6:16----------- obedience>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unto righteousness
Since one believes unto righteousness and obedience is unto righteousness and there is just one way be saved, no alternatives, then at NT belief MUST include obedience else the Bible contains contradictions.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Romans 10:3 refutes Luther's faith onlyism. This verse clearly shows two different types of works with one work that cannot save (establishing OWN righteousness) and one that does save (obeying GOD'S righteousness). Psalms 119:172 says all God commandments are righteousness therefore those Jews were lost for not obeying God's commands, those Jews would not believe nor confess Romans 10:9-10, they would not "obey the gospel" Romans 10:16.
James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works,; what kind of works James? "when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"
So the specific type of work James is talking about that justified Abraham was obedience to the will of God and not works of merit, not works of the OT law of Moses but obedience to God.
James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works; (What kind of works? Obedience to the will of God per verse 21) is dead?"
Therefore faith that is void of obedience to God is dead, useless, worthless.
It takes an OBEDIENT faith to be justified.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Wherefore, if both the apostles and the teachers of the Church who succeeded them and imitated them did both these things—that is, both truly preached the grace of God which is not given according to our merits, and inculcated by wholesome precepts a pious obedience—what is it which these people of our time think themselves rightly bound by the invincible force of truth to say, “Even if what is said of the predestination of God’s benefits be true, yet it must not be preached to the people”?
It must absolutely be preached, so that he who has ears to hear, may hear. And who has them if he has not received them from Him who says, “I will give them a heart to know me, and ears to hear”? Assuredly, he who has not received may reject; while, yet, he who receives may take and drink, may drink and live. For as piety must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, God may be rightly worshipped; modesty must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, no illicit act may be perpetrated by his fleshly nature; charity must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, God and his neighbours may be loved—so also must be preached such a predestination of God’s benefits that he who has ears to hear may glory, not in himself, but in the Lord.
It must absolutely be preached, so that he who has ears to hear, may hear. And who has them if he has not received them from Him who says, “I will give them a heart to know me, and ears to hear”? Assuredly, he who has not received may reject; while, yet, he who receives may take and drink, may drink and live. For as piety must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, God may be rightly worshipped; modesty must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, no illicit act may be perpetrated by his fleshly nature; charity must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, God and his neighbours may be loved—so also must be preached such a predestination of God’s benefits that he who has ears to hear may glory, not in himself, but in the Lord.
A quote from “A Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance” by Saint Augustine of Hippo (early 5th Century)
400 years before Saint Augustine, the Apostle Paul wrote the same message ...
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived [twins] by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though [the twins] were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to [His] choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
A quote from “A Letter to the Saints in Rome” by the Apostle Paul.14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
A quote from “A Letter to the Saints in Ephesus” by the Apostle Paul.
1200 years after Saint Augustine, the Canons of Dort reaffirmed the same ancient truth ...
As the doctrine of divine election by the most wise counsel of God was declared by the prophets, by Christ himself, and by the apostles, and is clearly revealed in the Scriptures both of the Old and the New Testament, so it is still to be published in due time and place in the Church of God, for which it was peculiarly designed….”
From Article 14 of the 1st Point of the Canons of Dort, by the Synod of Dort.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
If obedience is unto justification, then obedience is unto salvation.
That would be salvation by works.
Obedience is unto righteousness in one sense; in that it takes us being outwardly being obedient for us to be declared righteous by man.
Before the Lord it is clear from the holy scriptures that we are only declared righteous because of our faith.
I have said it before and I will say it again (as an example):
If I give $5 to the poor, or even $5,000,000, that is not going to produce in me the inward change that amounts to salvation in Jesus Christ.
The only thing that will do that is a work of the Holy Spirit and grace as I place my faith in Jesus, and He, through that faith, makes me into a new creature in Him (2 Corinthians 5:17).
We receive the Holy Spirit by faith (Galatians 3:14); and the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts via the same Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5).
There is a sense in which we must walk in obedience and that this produces practical righteousness.
But this obedience must come from the love that is shed abroad in our hearts because of faith in Jesus.
It should be clear from Romans 4:5 that the Lord is him who justifieth the ungodly, and therefore, this would preclude that being declared righteous is not the result of obedience, which would be godly character rather than ungodly.
Godly character would follow being declared righteous.
On another note, being set free from sin is not the same thing as being declared righteous. Being declared righteous is justification; being set free from sin is sanctification. Are they intertwined at some level? I believe they are. But they are not the same thing.
So obedience is not before justification; because God is a God who justifieth the ungodly and if obedience precedes justification then He is the God who "justifieth the godly."
Scripture is clear:
Rom 5:8, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
We must certainly repent in order to enter in to a relationship with Jesus Christ. And this repentance is a turnaround from being disobedient to being obedient.
But I would say that it is really a change of attitude and not the works of obedience that make us righteous, when it comes down to it. Obeying the Lord certainly reflects that change of attitude; and therefore, as man looks at the situation, man judges that when a person is obedient to the Lord, they are justified.
Justification before man is different than justification before God.
Consider:
Rom 4:2, For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Abraham was justified by works; and therefore he has whereof to glory (before man). But before God the only thing that Abraham had whereof to glory in was because of his faith. His only justification before the Lord was by faith (alone); not of works.
Rom 4:1, What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2, For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3, For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4, Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Now, since obedience translates into works, we determine that we are not saved by our obedience but by our faith in Jesus; which regenerates and renews us so that we become new creatures in Christ, who are obedient by nature, as an attitude that saves.
But we are not saved by any acts of obedience. Rather, we are saved by the faith that makes us into new creatures in Christ, who are obedient by nature.
Salvation is the inward transformation that takes place on the inside of someone who is saved by grace through faith; and it cannot be accomplished by any outward act. It is accomplished through faith alone; something that changes you on the inside: and Christ in you, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) is a state of mind that can only be accomplished in receiving Christ through faith (see John 1:12).
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Context.
Romans 9:30-33 speaks of those who stumble at a stumblingstone; and that stumblingstone has to do with rejecting faith for trusting in one's obedience to save them.
No one is arguing that living/saving faith isn't obedient. For I teach that we are justified by a living faith alone; and that this faith makes us into new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), who are obedient by nature.
At the same time, scripture teaches that salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:9 and context, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 11:5-6).
So then, while a living and saving faith produces works, the resulting works are not salvational to the life of the believer.
It is the faith that saves (the attitude of obedience that comes from repentance).
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Salvation by obedience to God. God does not save the disobedient.....1 John 3:10 as long as one continues to not do righteousness, one continues to not be of God.
justbyfaith said:
Romans 6:18-18 and James 2 have nothing to do with man being justified by man but man being justified by God.
justbyfaith said:
Yes, the Bible says we are justified by "faith" Romans 5:1. The Bible also says we are NOT justified by "faith only", James 2:24.
So there must be a difference between "faith" and "faith only" and that difference is that "faith" which does justifies includes obedience where faith only is void of obedience making it dead.
justbyfaith said:
I have never argued that doing a good work as in giving to the poor can save a person. An atheist can do many good works but those good works will not save him. Not until the atheist obeys God's will in doing what God said to do for one to be saved in believing John 8:24; repenting Luke 13:3 confessing Matthew 10:32-33 and being baptized Mark 16:16 can the atheist then be saved.
justbyfaith said:
Again, NT faith includes obedience
justbyfaith said:
Romans 4:5 does say God justifies the ungodly. Exodus 23:7 says God will NOT justify the ungodly. Therefore God will not justify the ungodly as long as they remain ungodly, but when the ungodly obey then God will justify them. In Romans 4 Abraham and David were ungodly men, neither were perfectly sinless. When were they justified? When they obeyed, not before. James says Abraham was justified by works, NOT justified BEFORE he did works.
justbyfaith said:
Romans 6:17-18 being "freed from sin" is the same thing as justified and one obeys from the heart first THEN one is freed from sin - justified -saved.
justbyfaith said:
Again, Paul said obedience UNTO righteousness NOT obedience because one is already righteous.
Obedience first then saved. In Acts 2 they asked Peter what they must do. Peter told them to obey first (repent and be baptized) then they would be saved (remission of sins) verse 38.
justbyfaith said:
Romans 5:8 says Christ died for sinners, it says nothing about sinners being justified much less justified before they obeyed.
justbyfaith said:
Righteous simply means 'right doing'. How can disobedience make one right doing? The only cure for disobedience is doing righteousness. One continues in disobedience, unrighteousness, law breaking unless and until he obeys.
Justification before men has never been the issue. Romans 6 and James 2 is about God justifying men.justbyfaith said:
justbyfaith said:
The works in Romans 4:2 have to do with the flawless works required under the OT law of Moses. Abraham sinned so he could not be justified by the OT law of Moses, he did not even live under that law. So how then was he justified? By an obedient faith.
Romans 4:5 Abraham "worketh not" means he did not work to be justified by keeping the OT law flawlessly but justified by an obedient belief.
Secondly, Paul says Abraham "worketh not" yet from Hebrews 11:8 and Hebrews 11:17 Abraham DID DO WORKS!! So how can Abraham be said to "worketh not" when he, in fact, he did do works? That is because "worketh not" in Rom 4:5 excludes flawless works required by the OT law of Moses that does not justify while and Heb 11:8,17 refers to obedience to God that does save.
justbyfaith said:
Again:
obedience UNTO righteousness Rom 10:16
God accepts those that work righteousness Acts of the Apostles 10:35
those who continue to not do righteousness continue to not be of God 1 John 3:10
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In Ephesians 2:8-9, the scripture is clear that salvation is not of works, also in Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 11:5-6 (kjv), you will see that grace and works are mutually exclusive as pertains to what saves us.
It is not by works of righteousness which we have done (i.e. our obedient actions); but by His mercy that He has saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost.
Being saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ, if that faith is a living and saving faith, it will result in being given the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14).
Through the Holy Ghost, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in the heart (Romans 5:5).
This love is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).
This love is also the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).
Having the righteousness of the law fulfilled within us is the result of salvation; it does not produce it (Galatians 5:4).
Romans 4:6 is clear:
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Ephesians 2:8-9 is just as clear:
Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Is obedience necessarily out of the picture?
No; for if a man is born again through faith in Jesus Christ, he is made into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).
And a new creature in Christ is inclined towards obedience, as an attitude towards behaviour.
The love of the Lord is shed abroad in his heart (Romans 5:5), because of grace.
This love is not in word or in tongue only; but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).
Obedience out of love results from genuine salvation.
It does not save a man; it stems out of a salvation that already exists.
Because if obedience saves, then we can faithfully cut out of our Bibles Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:6, along with a bunch of other verses.
Then Revelation 22:19 isn't true; and everyone is left with smorgasborg religion.
It is not by works of righteousness which we have done (i.e. our obedient actions); but by His mercy that He has saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost.
Being saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ, if that faith is a living and saving faith, it will result in being given the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14).
Through the Holy Ghost, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in the heart (Romans 5:5).
This love is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).
This love is also the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).
Having the righteousness of the law fulfilled within us is the result of salvation; it does not produce it (Galatians 5:4).
Romans 4:6 is clear:
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Ephesians 2:8-9 is just as clear:
Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Is obedience necessarily out of the picture?
No; for if a man is born again through faith in Jesus Christ, he is made into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).
And a new creature in Christ is inclined towards obedience, as an attitude towards behaviour.
The love of the Lord is shed abroad in his heart (Romans 5:5), because of grace.
This love is not in word or in tongue only; but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).
Obedience out of love results from genuine salvation.
It does not save a man; it stems out of a salvation that already exists.
Because if obedience saves, then we can faithfully cut out of our Bibles Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:6, along with a bunch of other verses.
Then Revelation 22:19 isn't true; and everyone is left with smorgasborg religion.
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The following scriptures also come to mind:
Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
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bbyrd009
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Again, CONTEXT shows that works mentioned in Eph 2:9, Romans 4:5 Titus 3:5, etc refer to works of merit or works of self-righteousness one does to try and earn salvation or refer to works required by the OT law. Not one of those verses eliminate obedience to the will of God.
You have not yet shown me one example from the Bible of a person who was justified BEFORE he obeyed God, that is, justified while he remained impenitently disobedient, rebellious to the will of God.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
No one is justified by works of the OT law of Moses as Romans 4:5 shows Abraham was not one justified by works of the OT law but instead was justified by an obedient belief.
justbyfaith said:
Romans 3:20 again shows one is not justified by the OT law of Moses. I have pointed out many times one is not justified by works required by the OT law of Moses but instead one is jutified by obedient faith. Paul is contrasting works/deeds of the OT law from faith in Romans 3:28
Again, how could Abraham be one who "worketh not" per Romans 4:5 when we know for a fact he did do works per Hebrews 11:8; Hebrews 11:17?
Does the Bible contradict itself?
YOU posted the verse about private interpretation.
I reposted it because I agree with it.
I don't interpret any verse all on my own...I seek those that know.
(or at least, have sought them)
Here it is: GG said:
Are you aware that the majority of Christianity agrees with my exegesis?
You've told me before that might does not make right so you don't need to repeat it.
see post 179
Yes. I knew you'd be happy.
I must be a tough cookie...
your pal over at Christforums BANNED me for speaking my mind.
This is a great testimony for Calvinism....
Some just can't even have a decent conversation.
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