Biblical Foreknowledge

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

pt2;

But we do find that God created us in Christ Jesus for good works which He has prepared before hand that we walk in them.

Okay , finally a biblical statement I can agree with you here as it is basically eph2;10

[QUOTE]but it at least demonstrates God’s design for us to walk in the Light, to love one another, and to do kingdom work. This depends[/QUOTE].
Yes,agreed eph 5:1-17

God chose a people. The elect are most often described as a people group. I believe that this by necessity means God chose individuals at least in the context that those in the group can look back to an origin in God’s love

.

Why not stick with the biblical God given language?
God chooses individuals living stones that he fits together;
eph1:
3 Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,

5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved,

Eph2;
21 in whom all the building fitly framed together doth increase to an holy sanctuary in the Lord,

22 in whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

But the language itself in Scripture does not rule out other interpretations like corporate election.

Said no Calvinist ever. These errors are debunked by the very language. Leighton Flowers got destroyed trying to mention this, could not exegete anything to even hint at this idea.

No, “in the beginning God created…”This is a logical fallacy (and liberty taken with Scripture. The bible does not say “before the world God choose a multitude of individuals”.

Said No Calvinist ever... These kind of things are why Calvinists know you are not one. You pick and choose things you claim you believe, and you might be sincere in your mind, but do not try and say you are a Calvinist, you are not.
No one says you have to be, but do not pretend. be who you are and own your view. That is all anyone ever asked of you.
people do not react against you primarily for where you stand, but for the other issues.

Here is where we HAVE to be honest with Scripture and lean not on our own understanding but on what is actually contained in God’s Word

.

We disagree on what is the content of scripture. that in part is why these boards exist. You post what you want, I post what I want. Not what you try and censor me to say. The readers can look and consider.
When you cannot delete and censor my posts or other cals it makes a difference . In the other place you would have deleted most of what i posted...but let the reader decide, not you and your delete button

I believe that God choose a multitude of individuals in a way – but in another way

,



Of course, your own way, not the historic confessional faith, not Calvinism..own your view, do not pretend.

an omniscient God does not “choose”.

S
He elects each and every individual He purposes to save, that is the biblical fact. When people deny that biblical fact and you like their posts, that is telling.

there is always an issue when you start with an idea and then go back to support every iota of detail. This gets even more complicated as you base your concrete stance not on Scripture but on philosophical conclusions. It's a weak footing.

[/QUOTE]

It is all based on scripture

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

*bump for @Anthony D'Arienzo *


Ok, can you answer my question then?

Yes, I type very slow, I am quite defective using my fat fingers and not having typing skills. i had a light day of work, so trying to catch up.let me find the questions...
Ok I think this is it;

Jane_Doe22 said: ↑
I specifically asked about the damned people and you answered with Gen 1:31.

Again, I'm talking specifically about damned people.

Yes gen 1:31 was the correct answer. God did not create..damned people. Everything was good.....
Sin and the fall brought damnation on mankind.
if God did not elect a multitude of dead sinners to save, we would all go to hell. did you read my post on federal headship?
it is a theological term but you can find much on it.

Here, let's run with an example: in the year 1963 "Bob" the serial killer was born and spent his entire life loving sin and doing all sorts of evil things. Of course, in Calvinism Bob doesn't have free will to do good and Bob is not among the elect.

Bob is a totally depraved person as we are all born that way. If it were not for common grace he would have even done worse.

Now, who created Bob?

His parents got busy and he was conceived in sin psaLM 51;5
5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

Adam and Eve were made as image -bearers of God, made in His image and likeness gen 1;31

after the fall into sin and death man although originally created in the likeness and image, it is now fallen and twisted by sin, look here;
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Yes, I type very slow, I am quite defective using my fat fingers and not having typing skills. i had a light day of work, so trying to catch up.let me find the questions...
Ok I think this is it;


Yes gen 1:31 was the correct answer. God did not create..damned people. Everything was good.....
Sin and the fall brought damnation on mankind.
if God did not elect a multitude of dead sinners to save, we would all go to hell. did you read my post on federal headship?
it is a theological term but you can find much on it.



Bob is a totally depraved person as we are all born that way. If it were not for common grace he would have even done worse.



His parents got busy and he was conceived in sin psaLM 51;5
5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

Adam and Eve were made as image -bearers of God, made in His image and likeness gen 1;31

after the fall into sin and death man although originally created in the likeness and image, it is now fallen and twisted by sin, look here;
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

So Bob's parents are creator's of life?
Or is God the creator?

(I'm looking for the ultimate creator here). Who is the ultimate creator of Bob the evil serial killer?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Ok....think of it this way - "for whom the bell told" is correct. "Whom tolled the bell" is incorrect. "Whom he did foreknow" is correct. "Whom did God foreknow" is wrong.

Stick with "who" and you will be fine.

The reason I like posts I may not agree with is these people are being honest to the text of Scripture. They are not changing scripture to their theology (as you did with the John 3 statement)

I already said that I believe God elects individually. I already affirmed the five points of Calvinism. I even affirm "double predestination" in an Edwardian context.

People know this. But they also know that I am a Christian who will not attack them for their understanding and try to shove my understanding down their throats.

I already told you , believe whatever you desire. Do not getbhostile with me if i defend and offer ny position which is very much mainstream.
I do not "shove anything" down peoples throats...I respond to what is posted and oftentimes you do not like that I respond in a way that they have trouble responding to. You have trouble responding when your error is exposed.
i do not take any personal delight in this, the truth belongs to God. it is His truth.
Now if you egt personal as you have, i do not see that as edifying, as your bear false witness. I will respond and take no prisoners when you do personal posts.
stick to the scriptures and that will lower the temperature quite a bit. You have so much trouble without your delete button hiding when your exposed. That is up to you JonC

I will agree when I can, but reserve the right to disagree when I see I must.

 

[John Caldwell]

I already told you , believe whatever you desire. Do not getbhostile with me if i defend and offer ny position which is very much mainstream.
I do not "shove anything" down peoples throats...I respond to what is posted and oftentimes you do not like that I respond in a way that they have trouble responding to. You have trouble responding when your error is exposed.
i do not take any personal delight in this, the truth belongs to God. it is His truth.
Now if you egt personal as you have, i do not see that as edifying, as your bear false witness. I will respond and take no prisoners when you do personal posts.
stick to the scriptures and that will lower the temperature quite a bit. You have so much trouble without your delete button hiding when your exposed. That is up to you JonC

I will agree when I can, but reserve the right to disagree when I see I must.

You misunderstood (on two accounts).

First, we are dealing with rules of grammar. If we cannot accept that English has rules then how can we even start to argue the meaning of Koine Greek?

Second, I am not being aggressive towards you. I realize some people are sensitive and being retired military I can sometimes be upfront. But here I was just explaining to you why I like the posts of Christians who are not Calvinists (that was how you determined I was not a "real" Calvinist, after all).

I believe that our understandings are topics we can discuss without cultish tendencies. I am a Christian and all Christians have the right to be called children of God. I am not going to be hostile to anyone, especially a child of God.

Consider, Anthony, you started out by making false accusations against me, insulting me, and being abusive. Did I respond in kind? No. I prayed for you and forgave. I think you realized whatever hatred you had was not going to prevail. And now we can discuss doctrine. If I responded to you in kind we would never have gotten to this point.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

John Caldwell,

The issue is that you hold Calvinism as a religion.

I am not the topic of this thread, you continue to make it about me, and YOUR opinion of me

you are guilty of what Spurgeon called "puffery" in doctrine.

You can call me names and accuse me, but others now see you have an agenda.

You found the simplest theological system and contextualized everything into that system.This is not Calvinism

.
You are welcome to your opinion again of what you perceive I have done. You can believe and say what you want.
guess what, so can I. You are nowhere close to mainstream Calvinism, you are blown about by every wind of doctrine.

i remember you posting that everyone is wrong, and you have it right,lol

Calvinism (in terms of the 5 points) does not extend beyond addressing the articles of the Remonstrance.

That is your opinion which is weak and defective. Spurgeon and others explained it is the gospel understood.

A Calvinist who denies corporate election is a Calvinist deaf and dumb to Scripture

.

As written that is borderline heretical and shows you despise the actual teaching. God saves sinners one at a time, living stones that he fits into a Holy temple . As He assembles the individual sheep, the corporate assembly are kingdom members.
When they assemble in local churches there is a corporate element.

.Scripture is replete with God choosing a corporate people (whether Israel or the Church or Bride)

Not all Israel was of Israel....God elected individuals out of the chosen nation,lol

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
sperma of Abraham[natural birth]
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.{teknon] elect children of the Spiritual promise[spiritual birth]

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

scripturally your novel theories do not stand the test.

. That said, both Calvinism and Arminianism necessitates individual election[/QUOTE]

Did someone say...both sides of the fence

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

John Caldwell,

Consider, Anthony, you started out by making false accusations against me, insulting me, and being abusive. Did I respond in kind? No. I prayed for you and forgave. I think you realized whatever hatred you had was not going to prevail. And now we can discuss doctrine. If I responded to you in kind we would never have gotten to this point.

[/QUOTE]

JonC, i am not sure you are serious,

Did I respond in kind? No.

you have stalked me the whole thread..lets recap,from your posts;

Wait....to be clear, you are saying that Davy cannot believe Pink's Calvinism unless God allows him to believe it?

In a way I agree (just like you cannot believe John Wesley's doctrine unless God allows you to believe it). But in another way the comment sounds more cultish or gnostic in nature than Christian. I'm sure you mean the former, but the wording allows for the notion of "another gospel".

Anthony D....I do not want to offend, but did you do drugs as a child???

Anthony D,

First off, I am sorry for the drug comment

I do not know what you are going through, either spiritually or emotionally

Sometimes people try to argue themselves into true belief. They latch on to a system of religion and defend it with all they have hoping it will somehow save them in the end. In so doing they become irrationally argumentative and cult-like. Sometimes people have a legitimate mental issue. Sometimes people are undergoing emotional stresses. Sometimes people are just having a bad day. Either way, as a Christian I need to try to help rather than exploit their situation.

I don’t know your situation. Judging from your post, it seems to be some type of emotional situation.

Perhaps your denial of the effectiveness and necessity of prayer highlights how you hold Calvinism as a religion and how it misshapes your view here.

I have absolutely no right to hold even the ungodly “christian” as a debtor

It is sad that the persecutors who openly trample the blood of Christ are found within the Church (assuming that you are a member of a church)

but we are taught that even wolves will sneak in.

The heart of a man sometimes comes out on these types of boards as the normal roadblocks are removed.

My prayer is that God will help you to bring you to a godly sorrow leading to repentance and to life. I pray that the scales will fall from your eyes and you will start seeing the value in the blood of Christ, the blood you trample when you trample upon those for whom Christ died.

I pray that you will be able to set aside your arrogance and your religion and truly see the gospel and know what God had done and what has been wrought in the hearts and lives of those of us who believe

You appear to be wrestling with emotional issues

here are just a few of your disingenuous creepy posting..you cannot delete them either so everyone gets the idea...go away JonC

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Jane22

You asked for a biblical answer and I provided it.
now you say;

So Bob's parents are creator's of life?
Or is God the creator?
(I'm looking for the ultimate creator here). Who is the ultimate creator of Bob the evil serial killer

You did not ask who created life, you asked who created Bob, it was his parents

You are not trying to blame a Holy God for man's sin, are you?
God created every created thing. The world has been cursed by sin and death due to man's sin.
You are not saying that God as the creator is to be blamed for evil are you?
if God did not create angels or man, there would be no sin and rebellion, is that what you are saying???

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Yes, Anthony, I am being serious. I was kidding when I spoke of a secret handshake but I have not joked with you. I do not feel comfortable associating with you in a jovial manner. If you ever wonder about my intent, just ask.

And you can just call me John.

John,
We do not get along. We have spoken on the phone and you came off as normal. What you have done online is like the horse being out of the barn. I have tried to point it out, but I cannot help you.
Someone else has to do it as you do not understand me. If the truth be known you would rather I do not exist as you have made it clear over there.
But I do exist, John, so I ask you for about the twentieth time. You go your way I will go mine.
if God wants to use you he will.
You seem as an obsessed stalker trying to undermine me. You can go help others. I will do likewise.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Jane22

You asked for a biblical answer and I provided it.
now you say;


You did not ask who created life, you asked who created Bob, it was his parents

You are not trying to blame a Holy God for man's sin, are you?
God created every created thing. The world has been cursed by sin and death due to man's sin.
You are not saying that God as the creator is to be blamed for evil are you?
if God did not create angels or man, there would be no sin and rebellion, is that what you are saying???

Asking who created Bob is the same thing as asking who created Bob's life.

From where i'm standing it seems that Calvinism teaches that: God creates Bob so Bob can literally do nothing but wickedness, Bob does lots of wickedness, and then God send Bob to Hell for being wicked.

For there to be ANY other conclusion, requires Bob to have a choice whether to choose good or evil. But in Calvinism he doesn't: God (being entirely all powerful and all knowing) made Bob that way- capable of only evil.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Asking who created Bob is the same thing as asking who created Bob's life.

From where i'm standing it seems that Calvinism teaches that: God creates Bob so Bob can literally do nothing but wickedness, Bob does lots of wickedness, and then God send Bob to Hell for being wicked.

For there to be ANY other conclusion, requires Bob to have a choice whether to choose good or evil. But in Calvinism he doesn't: God (being entirely all powerful and all knowing) made Bob that way- capable of only evil.

Sorry, But you do not understand the teaching and are trying to blame God for mans sin...
this is wrong altogether.
God was not joking when he told Adam ,dying thou shalt surely die.
for you;
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Sorry, But you do not understand the teaching and are trying to blame God for mans sin...
this is wrong altogether.
God was not joking when he told Adam ,dying thou shalt surely die.
for you;
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

Then explain your views to me:
Who do you believe created the evil Bob, who can do nothing but evil? Who is responsible for Bob being evil?

It is not Bob- he has no will (running with Calvinism logic here). It is not Adam- he is/was not a creator of life. It was not any other human- they also have no will and are not creators.

Who created evil Bob?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

55 Critiques of John Calvin: Introduction & Master List

This thread is about biblical foreknowledge.
your post containing a defense of Rc theology should be a thread by itself.
The false roman Church departs from scripture and cannot be defended.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Then explain your views to me:
Who do you believe created the evil Bob, who can do nothing but evil? Who is responsible for Bob being evil?

I have answered you on Bob...fish have fish, dogs have dogs, sinners have other sinners.
as far as Evil, the 13 page link is the best i have found on it.
if you look it over , your answer will be found in there.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Great link E.
I've read some of the Institutes but there's really just too much.
However, what I have read is rather disconcerting to say the least.
We can be comforted by the fact the the ECFs did NOT believe in any type
of predestination, and in the end, even Augustine didn't. Although, he was pretty much alone in his beliefs anyway and I've come to understand that MAYBE he was very much respected by his piers because he was able to stand up to many heresies as no one else could.

The roman Church was corrupt early on, The ecf are not reliable as man made tradition fed the corruption

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Anthony, don't be so dramatic. I respond to posts and discuss doctrines I find interesting. A friend once told me coddling people rarely helps them or the situation.

That phone call you were speaking of was me reaching out to you because you had ben banned on the BB. I was the one who canceled that ban to get you back. When you became abusive again I stepped back to let others deal with the problem.

This (and the BB) are forums for discussion and fellowship. This should be a very minor part of your existence. If you find it difficult to deal with Christians who disagree with you here then how will you handle when it happens in the "real world".

Lighten up. Enjoy life. Live ithers - set aside all malice. It will change your attitude, I promise.

The books I recommend you (and others) are "Grasping God's Word" and "The Hermenutical Spiral". Learn to learn.

Let me clearer....I believe you care for me and my cal brothers like Cain cared for Abel;
keep your condescending advise, suggestions, and prayer to yourself. they are not welcome here.
If and when you repent, restore the deleted posts, admit you lied and slandered each cal mentioned, and step down over there as not really fit, then I might reconsider things because it would appear maybe God has granted you repentance.
Others have observed and agree with what I have posted. Stop your excessive hubris and condescending self -righteousness.

i know you are trying to present this facade for the new people who do not know you. But you are already exposed

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
verse 12 describes your actions as far as I can see. You betrayed my trust and show your self reprehensible. I travel all over the country and read people well. i made a mistake with you because I did not meet you in person and I would have gotten a better read on you. I forgave you a few times, you thanked me for that. But that has worn off, as you go back to trying to undermine Calvinists.
Your claims about what you believe do not fool any of us.
it is best you go away John...i will take the chance that i can exist without your "HELP"

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

You both seem to be reasonably intelligent. But I keep saying that these battles are caused by people that cannot see the forest for the trees. You need to step back and look at the spirit of Christ, the spirit of Christianity. I have pointed out that there are literally tens of thousands of Protestant denominations. Go look it up if you do not believe me! I am going to say thousands and thousands, but those that have counted them say something over 33,000 Protestant denominations and even more non-denominational churches. First off that means there is a problem. Oh sure you can pooh pooh everyone else’s beliefs and that still gets you no where. So if there are that my interpretations of the scriptures it means you can get at least a few legitimate differing beliefs from them. A wise man would notice this, really. He would step back and look at this. Does fracturing the church serve God or the Devil? A wise man would look at the overall spirit of Christ and His mission. Would He be fair? Does it involve love and forgiveness? Would God send His only begotten Son to set up a system of control? If He was going to control it why would you send your Son to be horribly tortured and nailed to a cross? The scenario of mind control are the things that horror flicks are made up of. The concept of the elite has caused the worst of evil in history. Is it fair? If you have all these possibilities of interpretations, why not look at the spirit of Christ and His mission? Christ died for us to make a choice. He and the Apostles worked very hard to get people to make a choice to be saved. He and His Father sacrificed. God so loved the word that gave His only begotten Son. The Father made a sacrifice too! Was this for mind control? Was this to control people’s choices. The concept makes no sense no matter what level of predestination you are talking about. If I did not think you two were intelligent I would not waist my button pushing. Step back and think before it is too late.

MY friend GH,
I believe you are trying to help, and I am thankful you are doing what you think you need to do that way.
You are perhaps a Roman Catholic?
i am an ex RC...priests say i am a separated brethren. I have a second cousin who is a nun who speaks on catholic Tv and radio programs.... so I know what that is about, The idea they are the one true Church, but then I read a bible and God saved me out of that mess.
i like Catholics but not the false church.
So I would rather speak about Jesus and His Blood shed for sinners, not get into that Church, unless I can
remove obstacles.
If that is to take place, you have to deal with scripture...You have not responded to any of the scripture so far...

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I have answered you on Bob...fish have fish, dogs have dogs, sinners have other sinners.

So since Bob is a sinner and God made Bob, then...

if you look it over , your answer will be found in there.

Anthony, I'm asking you for YOUR answer. Not what someone else says. I want to better understand what YOU believe.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I just saw this. What are you talking about (how do we "block" or "unblock" posts)?

On the BB, i looked at your profile and tried to look up something you posted.
It gives an error message, saying this member restricts who can view his posts.
no one else does that, only you. I cannot show you because access is blocked to me right now, but it has been that way since that meltdown back at the end of January when you deleted your post where you got overheated. Others have seen it and I posted the reactions of Biblicist and Sg to Squire, salty and RSR. look there. You knew the deleted post, and were asked 5 times to restore it, but you refused to do it. Others have Pm me and confirmed it

i have never censored anyone or put anyone on ignore or deleted anyone's posts. you have with all of us....

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

So since Bob is a sinner and God made Bob, then...

Anthony, I'm asking you for YOUR answer. Not what someone else says. I want to better understand what YOU believe.

I am not that smart jane22. I gave you my biblical answer . I do not speculate where scripture is silent.
if you want truth that link says what i believe much clearer than I can. I know the pastor who wrote it, he is one of the most gifted persons i have ever met, and I travel everywhere.
What i say or believe does not matter, what saith the scripture is what matters.