Was Pharaoh under the sovereign control of God?

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Waiting on him

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But Paul never said foreknowledge always demands predetermination. There are some things God foreknew and predetermined to happen, as the crucifixion of Christ, but not all things.
I don’t see it that way, I see Him as having orchestrated the crucifixion.
 

Stranger

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After someone pointed out the "ignore" button, I looked through the most annoying responses to my posts and in no time, the triggered trolls were all gone. I just realized with your post that, for the most part, the triggered trolls all seem to post to each other which is why up until this post, I haven't heard a peep from any of them.

It has also confirmed for me the fact that hell is not some place of torture where the saved are able to see and hear from the other side of some gulf. If anyone wants to hear the cries of the damned, then God would be more than happy to place them in there with them.

Hit that "ignore" button for the trolls, and I'm sure you'll agree, the quality of your posts will improve significantly; mine did. It's like banishing them to their own private hell where they're free to torment themselves and others, and leave everyone else in peace.

If you have everyone on ignore, then you won't hear anything. Big revelation that was. I don't care if you put me on ignore. It doesn't stop me from posting when I want to. Just makes you more ignorant. Just means you're afraid. Just means you're position is weak.

Because you like the ignore button and you like to label others 'trolls', you are nothing but a troll yourself. You are not a Christian. Because the moderation is lax on this forum then you get away with starting silly anti-christian posts all over the forum, which is against forum rules I believe.

But, you have a friend in 'golden aspen'. Surprise, surprise. Birds of a feather flock together.

Stranger
 

Ernest T. Bass

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I don’t see it that way, I see Him as having orchestrated the crucifixion.
God foreknew all the choices men would make by sending Christ to earth at the time He did. God foreknew those Jews would choose to reject Christ, that Judas would choose to betray Christ, those Romans would choose to crucify Christ. Therefore God used men's choices to accomplish His will that Christ die for the sins of men. Since God used the choices of men means God had no culpability thus Peter could rightly, justly pin the sin of crucifying the Christ on the "wicked hands" of those Jews and Romans.
 

Waiting on him

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No, you're not getting the point of the argument. Paul isn't pointing out that God has predetermined people for wrath or mercy. Paul is simply pointing out a logical fact. If I know that my dog is going to dig a hole two minutes after he is tossed a bone, and that he will then bury it, this in no way denies that my dog is doing this of his own free will. I can't know this with 100% accuracy unless it is predestined. Here again, this doesn't negate the dog's free will. If I also know that two seconds before he is going to begin digging, a squirrel will dart out from the side of his dog house, I know that he will not commence digging, but will instead give chase to the squirrel instead. Here again, no one is being denied their free will. This doesn't negate the fact that God is omniscient, and God's omniscience cannot be relied upon if any number of factors are unknown. It is to contradict the meaning of omniscience.

God insures that his will is carried out. It is only our assumptions that free will cannot exist along side predestination that causes confusion.

Again, you can't fly to the moon. You weren't designed to fly at all, but this doesn't impinge upon the fact that you still have free will. It is the same with Paul's argument. The carnal mind is emnity against God, and can never please God. Does this mean that the carnal mind has no free will? Nope. It just means that it is useless for attaining salvation.

God's promises are by faith, "and that not of yourselves". It's not your or my faith that saves anyone. It's completely out of our hands as far as the will of the carnal mind goes.

The bible points out that "the whole world is deceived", and deceived people cannot choose to do the right thing for the right reasons.

This is something I've pointed out in other threads in the past that we are deluded if we think that there is anything we can do to sustain ourselves. It is only by the providence of God that anyone is able to do anything in the first place. Christ points out that apart from him we can do nothing. Yet we continue to work for Mammon rather than for God. Our actions betray our so-called beliefs, and spotlight that we can only make feeble attempts to believe what we have no ability to see.

Thus it must be by revelation from God that anyone can begin to see the truth, and THEN believe. The bible is the testimony of witnesses, not those who just believe what they've been told.
Really like the dog bone and squirrel story, sounds like we could have a lot of fun with him with a bag of bone and a few squirrels, since we know his heart(nature) so well.

What would you do with him if you had the power to give him a new nature, let’s say reprogram his heart, a new (nature)?
What would you make his desires to be?
 

shnarkle

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Really like the dog bone and squirrel story, sounds like we could have a lot of fun with him with a bag of bone and a few squirrels, since we know his heart(nature) so well.

What would you do with him if you had the power to give him a new nature, let’s say reprogram his heart, a new (nature)?
What would you make his desires to be?

We don't have to. Dogs already want to please their pack leader. They just need training. They just need to have that desire revealed to them.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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You have to prove that the story of Jonah, which no observant Jew views as anything other than a parable, proves your point. You have to prove that the story of Jonah is literal reality.

It was not a parable nor did you provide any proof it was just a parable.





shnarkle said:
Of course it does. The term is synonymous with foreknowledge, foresight, etc. Now you know.

"9For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate"

There is nothing in Paul's argument to suggest that those God doesn't foreknow, or predestinate, are somehow conformed to the image of Christ. Your claim basically boils down to this idea that God predestines some things, but not all things. Well, you still have to defend your position with regards to those he has predestined. Those who aren't predestined for damnation, are all willingly damning themselves.

As C.S. Lewis pointed out, the gates of hell are locked from the inside.

Nowhere does the Bible explain how providence works. God's hand is in events as they unfold but the Bible does not explain how. The Bible says all things work together for the good to them that love God but the Bible does not explain how God does this. We know God's providential care exists but are unable to comprehend how it works.

Rom 8 the "whom" god foreknew was the group Christian, then that love God. Anyone can be in this group that choose to obey the gospel and become a Christian.
 
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shnarkle

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It was not a parable nor did you provide any proof it was just a parable.

It's obviously a parable as Nineveh was never anywhere near as big as it was described in the story. The people of Nineveh worshipped Dagon the fish god, and Jonah is barfed up onto the beach by their god right in front of them. Their god can't handle the message or the messenger, and so the people must repent as well along with their god. When one sees that the story is a parable, they're able to see so much more than just some story of a city repenting. This isn't to say that parables can't be based upon actual events; just that when its the story of a guy being swallowed by a fish, then being barfed out onto the one destination he doesn't want to go to, in order to proclaim a message that he, along with his Jewish audience knows will result in them being taken into captivity by the descendants of these repentant Ninevites; only those who are unfamiliar with these facts are going to view them as literal accounts. Perhaps the fact that people in the west were brought up believing in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny has something to do with it as well, I don't know.

Perhaps it's that only Christians are likely to believe that a literal snake is talking to Eve, or that they're eating literal fruit has something to do with it. It's that pattern of ignorance that leads most to believe that these are just historical accounts rather than teaching parables. Jesus is the personification of the parables taught in the Old Testament. No wonder he teaches in parable, and no wonder most Christians don't get the teachings.







Nowhere does the Bible explain how providence works. God's hand is in events as they unfold but the Bible does not explain how. The Bible says all things work together for the good to them that love God but the Bible does not explain how God does this. We know God's providential care exists but are unable to comprehend how it works.

Rom 8 the "whom" god foreknew was the group Christian, then that love God. Anyone can be in this group that choose to obey the gospel and become a Christian.
 

shnarkle

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Rom 8 the "whom" god foreknew was the group Christian, then that love God. Anyone can be in this group that choose to obey the gospel and become a Christian.

Nope. Christ himself points out that you don't choose him, he chooses you. As I and others have already pointed out, it is God who places the new heart into those who are foreknown and predestined for glory, and it is for one purpose and one purpose alone; i.e. to keep God's commandments. By grace, through the faith of Christ, not your choice or your efforts which have proven to be useless over and over again.
 
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Waiting on him

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Psalm 19:4-5 KJV
[4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, [5] Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.


Tecarta Bible
 

shnarkle

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Would anyone here see choosing to be crucified as illogical?
Not when one has lost their identification with the body. Adam is created to reflect God, but instead chooses to reflect himself. Instead of identifying with his eternal Creator, he identifies with his mortal body of dirt.

Crucifixion is only viewed as ghastly by those who continue to identify with the flesh, and wish to save and preserve their bodies for eternity. Those who do not wish to save themselves are the ones who are actually saved.
 
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Waiting on him

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Not when one has lost their identification with the body. Adam is created to reflect God, but instead chooses to reflect himself. Instead of identifying with his eternal Creator, he identifies with his mortal body of dirt.

Crucifixion is only viewed as ghastly by those who continue to identify with the flesh, and wish to save and preserve their bodies for eternity. Those who do not wish to save themselves are the ones who are actually saved.
Good answer!


I love this guy!