Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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BreadOfLife

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We here all know that YOU are the only one that reads scripture...
the rest of us shouldn't even be here, we're so dumb and we're all liars.

All you know to do is INSULT persons...
How about replying to my posts instead of insulting me?
Maybe YOU can't have an intelligent conversation....
And to think that you thought you knew what a debate is.

So we have scripture.
Jesus told the woman....go and sin no more.
Jesus said there is no such thing as divorce.
Jesus said to confess if one is in sin.
Can you confess you are living in sin and then go home to live in sin?
CAN THAT SIN BE ABSOLVED?


DISCLAIMER:
I AM STATING WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES
AND WHICH IS NOT NECESSARILY MY OPINION.
The loser of an argument never goes down easy – and your insistence in beating this dead horse just makes me have to exposeyour LIE that many more times. . . .

Here is an
statement from Gerhard Mueller, Pope Francis’ Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

If Amoris Laetitia intended to rescind such a deeply rooted and such a weighty DISCIPLINE, it would have expressed itself in a clear manner and it would have given the reasons for it. However, such a statement with such a meaning is not to be found in [the document]. Nowhere does the pope put into question the arguments of his predecessors.”

Notice the term “DISCIPLINE”, which I bolded and rendered in ALL CAPS.
You are WRONG here and you were WRONG all along - but you kept insisting that you were right.
 

BreadOfLife

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You've taught 2nd grade students that it's OK to be divorced, remarried,
and still receive Holy Communion?

And your priest and bishop were OK with this?

What kind of a super liberal parish to YOU belong to?
No wonder your ideas are a mess.
I taught 2nd graders WHO was allowed to receive the Eucharist as they prepared to receive their First Communion. There is nothing “super liberal” about being truthful.


YOU should try it sometime . . .
 

Grailhunter

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And bearing false witness is a "good example" of Christianity??
Perhaps YOU need to read your Bible.

Tell me – does the book tell you how to deal with people who spew filthy lies with total impunity?
Yeah - I didn’t think so.

That's why we have Scripture . . .

You filthy whatever scriptures you quote with your attitude. You show, you have learnt nothing about Christianity with your attitude. You disgrace the Church by letting anyone know that you are a Catholic. Lesson #4 tomorrow....
 

BreadOfLife

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We here all know that YOU are the only one that reads scripture...
the rest of us shouldn't even be here, we're so dumb and we're all liars.

All you know to do is INSULT persons...
How about replying to my posts instead of insulting me?
Maybe YOU can't have an intelligent conversation....
And to think that you thought you knew what a debate is.

So we have scripture.
Jesus told the woman....go and sin no more.
Jesus said there is no such thing as divorce.
Jesus said to confess if one is in sin.
Can you confess you are living in sin and then go home to live in sin?
CAN THAT SIN BE ABSOLVED?


DISCLAIMER:
I AM STATING WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES
AND WHICH IS NOT NECESSARILY MY OPINION.
You’re ALL over the place on this subject because you know you’re wrong and you’ve been exposed.

We aren’t talking about adultery or fornication.

YOU brought up the idiotic claim that the Catholic Church “changed doctrine”. It is the position of the Catholic Church that it has never changed a doctrine in its 2000 year history.

YOU keep claiming that withholding or allowing divorced people – or ANYBODY else is a matter of “doctrine” – and I have PROVENthat you are wrong – dead wrong. This is all a matter of DISCIPLINE, as the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Gerhard Mueller, officially affirmed in my last post.

You are a glutton for punishment . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You filthy whatever scriptures you quote with your attitude. You show, you have learnt nothing about Christianity with your attitude. You disrespect the Church by letting anyone know that you are a Catholic. Lesson #4 tomorrow....
I’ve “learnt” plenty . . .
 

aspen

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I think the Gerhard quote is a good one. Not sure what else can be said, GG. You don’t have to like it.
 

aspen

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No one likes BOLs gloating and insults, grailhunter.
 

WalterandDebbie

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So let’s stop tap dancing BOL...are all these Christians here, just pretending? Are they taking the Eucharist improperly and therefore doomed? And if so in your mind, why do you care what they say about Catholicism? Why are you Hellbent on molesting the Goats?

“Smithers! release the hounds”
We love the scriptures when they are rightly divided unto GOD and His Precious Son esp. the ones like Romans 8 .
 

GodsGrace

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The loser of an argument never goes down easy – and your insistence in beating this dead horse just makes me have to exposeyour LIE that many more times. . . .

Here is an
statement from Gerhard Mueller, Pope Francis’ Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

If Amoris Laetitia intended to rescind such a deeply rooted and such a weighty DISCIPLINE, it would have expressed itself in a clear manner and it would have given the reasons for it. However, such a statement with such a meaning is not to be found in [the document]. Nowhere does the pope put into question the arguments of his predecessors.”

Notice the term “DISCIPLINE”, which I bolded and rendered in ALL CAPS.
You are WRONG here and you were WRONG all along - but you kept insisting that you were right.
LOL
This is toooo funny.

1. You didn't state the source.
2. Please note that Mueller is the head of the CONGREGATION OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH. He's trying to show that THERE WAS NO CHANGE,,when, in fact, there was.
3. I posted this document days ago. It's an OFFICIAL document of the Vatican:
and in the Letter written in 1994 by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Annus internationalis Familiae.

source: Declaration of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts


4. Of course Mueller would say that....he AGREES WITH THE CHANGE.

5. Here is the source of your above statement...next time please post a source just like I have done.

Others will be bored by now,,,but the following is MORE than what YOU have stated and which will show that the Vatican is backtracking and TRYING to say there is no change.

IF a discipline can be changed..WHY would the Pope try to back track?
What would be THE BIG DEAL of a small change in DISCIPLINE?

Also, let it be shown that a teaching and a discipline can be WITHIN a doctrine.

Here is more of your source: the blue is mine...

May 4, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) – The head of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, considered second only to the pope as the Vatican’s authority on doctrinal matters, has responded to the question of whether Pope Francis’ recent exhortation, Amoris Laetitia, has opened the door to giving Communion to divorced and civilly remarried Catholics.

Cardinal Gerhard Müller’s response is unambiguous: the Church’s teaching cannot be changed, and the exhortation did not do so.

[THE CHURCH'S TEACHING CANNOT BE CHANGED.
DOCTRINE CANNOT BE CHANGED....SO this is CLEARLY not a discipline as you've stated.
If it was a discipline there would have been no problem.]


The clarification from Cardinal Müller on the much-debated footnote 351 is likely to be the highest-level clarification to come out of the Vatican. When Pope Francis was recently asked about the footnote by journalists he said he did not remember it, nor what it said.

[Pope Francis CANNOT REMEMBER footnote 351...HOW CONVENIENT]

The cardinal gave his remarks during a recent trip to Spain. As reported by Die Tagespost, and translated by Maike Hickson at 1Peter5, Cardinal Müller spoke directly to arguments interpreting Amoris Laetitia as saying, in the words of the newspaper, that “the door has been opened for the remarried to be admitted to the Sacraments in individual cases.”

The newspaper reports that the cardinal stated, “with decisiveness,” that this is not the case, and that statements by previous popes on the matter still stand.

[CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE OR REMARRIEDS WOULD NOT BE RECEIVING COMMUNION!]

“This applies clearly to the reception of Holy Communion by remarried divorcees,” said Müller. “What has been taught by John Paul II in Familiaris Consortio and by Benedict XVI in Sacramentum Caritatis is still valid in an unchanged way.”

Arguments that Amoris Laetitia changed Church practice on Communion for the divorced and remarried are based largely on footnote 351, which comes in the context of a chapter devoted to the Church’s pastoral care for couples in “irregular” unions, and which states that this help can “in some cases include the help of the Sacraments” – with reference to Confession and the Eucharist.

At face value, this humble footnote was taken by many, including several German bishops, among them Cardinal Reinhard Marx, as marking a change from Pope St. John Paul II’s teaching in Familiaris Consortio. Cardinal Walter Kasper, while not making specific reference to the footnote, has also stated that it “seems clear” the exhortation allows Communion for the remarried divorcees.

In Familiaris Consortio Pope John Paul II had stated that couples in adulterous second unions can only receive the Eucharist if they separate, or, if they cannot separate for “serious reasons,” then they live together as “brother and sister” – i.e. without sexual relations.

However, Cardinal Müller clarified that this Magisterial teaching cannot change, and that, even if the pope intended to do so, the conditions for changing such a serious matter are not present in Amoris Laetitia.


[Oh, look again. Muller said that THIS VERY MAGESTERIAL TEACHING CANNOT BE CHANGED.....

AGAIN...CONFIRMING THAT THIS IS A DOCTRINE BECAUSE DOCTRINE CANNOT CHANGE...and as YOU have plainly stated....discipline CAN....so YOU ARE WRONG
BoL...admit it and let's get this over with]




If Amoris Laetitia intended to rescind such a deeply rooted and such a weighty discipline, it would have expressed itself in a clear manner and it would have given the reasons for it. However, such a statement with such a meaning is not to be found in [Amoris Laetitia]. Nowhere does the pope put into question the arguments of his predecessors. They are not based upon the subjective guilt of these our brothers and sisters, but, rather, upon the visible, objective way of life which is in opposition to the words of Christ.


The statement from Cardinal Müller on the much-debated footnote 351 is likely to be the highest-level clarification to come out of the Vatican. When Pope Francis was recently asked about the footnote by journalists on a plane ride back from the Greek Island of Lesbos, he said he did not remember it, nor what it said.

source: Cardinal Müller: Pope’s exhortation does not allow Communion for divorced/remarried - CatholicCitizens.org
 

GodsGrace

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You’re ALL over the place on this subject because you know you’re wrong and you’ve been exposed.

We aren’t talking about adultery or fornication.

YOU brought up the idiotic claim that the Catholic Church “changed doctrine”. It is the position of the Catholic Church that it has never changed a doctrine in its 2000 year history.

YOU keep claiming that withholding or allowing divorced people – or ANYBODY else is a matter of “doctrine” – and I have PROVENthat you are wrong – dead wrong. This is all a matter of DISCIPLINE, as the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Gerhard Mueller, officially affirmed in my last post.

You are a glutton for punishment . . .
YOU have proved NOTHING.
My last post just above shows from WHAT YOU LINKED
that we're talking about A DOCTRINE.

Since disciplines CAN BE CHANGED.....
And DOCTRINE CANNOT.....

WHY is the Vatican in an uproar over THE CHANGE ALLOWING REMARRIEDS TO RECEIVE COMMUNION????

And, yes kind sir...
we are discussing adultery and fornication.
If you don't think remarrying is adultery,,,you should resign from the CC RIGHT NOW.
Because you don't understand what it teaches.

And yet you come here to teach.

It's a disgrace.

Make sure you read post no. 413 very well and see if you can possibly understand why you're wrong about this....

And reply to my posts with information
and not with insults...
which is what persons do when they know they're wrong.
 
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Grailhunter

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I’ve “learnt” plenty . . .
A person who has acquired much knowledge through study is a learned person. ... Learned is the more common past tense and past participle of the verb learn. Learnt is a variant especially common outside North America. Learnt however is more common in British than America and Canada and is considered informal. I will include a grammar lesson with that. But I think accurate grammar is wasted on you because I do not think you can read. John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
 

Giuliano

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If Pope Francis is going to allow remarrieds to receive communion while they live together as husband and wife....this is an important change in catholic doctrine...which states that a person in mortal sin cannot receive communion.
What do you do if a woman got a divorce, remarries, has a child and then would like to repent and return to the Church? Should she separate the child from the father? Should she move out leaving the child with the father? Then there economic issues. If she lives as a single mom, can she support the child? Will the child's welfare be at risk? I think Pope Francis was moved by the harm that could be done to children.

I wish the Catholic Church would move closer to the position of the Orthodox Church about remarriage.
 
B

brakelite

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What do you do if a woman got a divorce, remarries, has a child and then would like to repent and return to the Church? Should she separate the child from the father? Should she move out leaving the child with the father? Then there economic issues. If she lives as a single mom, can she support the child? Will the child's welfare be at risk? I think Pope Francis was moved by the harm that could be done to children.

I wish the Catholic Church would move closer to the position of the Orthodox Church about remarriage.
I think perhaps what Francis is doing is moving away from the arbitrary stance of Catholicism, giving such a situation a more Christian perspective.
 

BreadOfLife

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YOU have proved NOTHING.
My last post just above shows from WHAT YOU LINKED
that we're talking about A DOCTRINE.

Since disciplines CAN BE CHANGED.....
And DOCTRINE CANNOT.....

WHY is the Vatican in an uproar over THE CHANGE ALLOWING REMARRIEDS TO RECEIVE COMMUNION????

And, yes kind sir...
we are discussing adultery and fornication.

If you don't think remarrying is adultery,,,you should resign from the CC RIGHT NOW.
Because you don't understand what it teaches.

And yet you come here to teach.

It's a disgrace.

Make sure you read post no. 413 very well and see if you can possibly understand why you're wrong about this....

And reply to my posts with information
and not with insults...
which is what persons do when they know they're wrong.
No, we're not discussing adultery and fornication.

Those are SINS and are doctrinal matters. Withholding or allowing the reception of the Eucharist from such people is a Disciplinary matter.
Withholding the Eucharist from a politician who supports abortion is ALSO a disciplinary matter.

ALL of your failed arguments on this subject are born from a complete ignorance of Catholic teaching.
So, here is yet another official text from the Code of Canon Law. Maybe NOW, you will finally accept that you LIED and were exposed . . .

PERIODICA DE RE CANONICA
vol. 96 (2007) pag. 3-58

The Discipline Regarding the Denial of Holy
Communion to Those Obstinately Persevering
in Manifest Grave Sin

R. L. BURKE

ROMA
PONTIFICIA UNIVERSITÀ GREGORIANA
PIAZZA DELLA PILOTTA, 4

PERIODICA 96 (2007) 3-58

CANON 915:
THE
DISCIPLINE REGARDING
THE DENIAL OF HOLY COMMUNION
TO THOSE OBSTINATELY PERSEVERING
IN MANIFEST GRAVE SIN


"The discussion among the Bishops uncovered a fair amount of serious confusion regarding the discipline of can. 915. First of all, the denial of Holy Communion was repeatedly characterized as the imposition of a canonical penalty, when, in reality, it plainly articulates the responsibility of the minister of Holy Communion, ordinary or extraordinary, to deny Holy Communion to those who obstinately persevere in manifest grave sin [1]. The denial of Holy Communion can be the effect of the imposition or declaration of the canonical penalties of Excommunication and Interdict (cf. cann. 1331 §1, 2º; and 1332) (i.e., DISCIPLINE), but there are other cases in which Holy Communion must be denied, apart from any imposition or declaration of a canonical penalty, in order to respect the holiness of the Sacrament, to safeguard the salvation of the soul of the party presenting himself to receive Holy Communion, and to avoid scandal.

Saint Basil the Great, in his First Letter on the Canons, indicates that the man who marries his brother's wife is not to be permitted to receive Holy Communion, until he separates from her. [12] He, likewise, declares that the widow who takes a husband after her sixtieth year is not to be admitted to Holy Communion, until <<she will have renounced her impure passion>> [13]. Although little commentary is offered regarding the reason for the DISCIPLINE, it seems clear that, in both cases, the reason for the prohibition is a public violation of the Church's DISCIPLINE regarding marriage and the resulting scandal in the community. The just-mentioned canons of Saint Basil the Great are among the fonts of can. 712 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, which corresponds to the DISCIPLINE articulated in can. 915 of the Code of Canon Law14.

The
DISCIPLINE is clear. Holy Communion is to be denied to the public sinner, whether the congregation is large or small. The minister, however, is not responsible for giving the Sacrament to the known heretic whom he fails to recognize because of the size of the crowd.

From the Decretal Law, it is clear that Church
DISCIPLINE places an obligation on the minister of Holy Communion to refuse Holy Communion to persons known, by the public, to be in mortal sin. The DISCIPLINE, faithful to the teaching of Saint Paul, safeguards the recognition of the most sacred nature of the Holy Eucharist, preventing public sinners from inflicting further grave damage upon their souls through the unworthy reception of the Holy Eucharist and safeguarding the faithful from the inevitable confusion regarding the sacredness of the Sacrament, which is caused by the admission of manifest and grave sinners to the reception of Holy Communion.

Ihe language of the
DISCIPLINE reflects the language of the Decretal Law. The same language will be found in the subsequent articulation of the Church's DISCIPLINE.



This is OFFICIAL text from the Church hierarchy and quotes Canon Law regarding this matter.

As I have repeatedly told you - withholding Communion from ANYBODY is a DISCIPLINARY matter - NOT a doctrinal one.
But YOU chose to spew lie after lie after lie - and now you've been exposed again . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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A person who has acquired much knowledge through study is a learned person. ... Learned is the more common past tense and past participle of the verb learn. Learnt is a variant especially common outside North America. Learnt however is more common in British than America and Canada and is considered informal. I will include a grammar lesson with that. But I think accurate grammar is wasted on you because I do not think you can read. John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
And yet, YOUR avatar info indicates that you're in the United States.
Nice try . . .