Paul didn't write Hebrews

[Grailhunter]

This is correct. The New Testament was written in Greek, But it was translated into Syriac by the second century. That translation is know as the Peshitta (or Peshito), with the OT from the Hebrew and the NT from the Greek. And there were many other translations made quite early in the history of the Bible.

How fast the scriptures were translated into different languages is a worthy study. Look at the churches in North Africa, would they want a Bible in their language...Still in that period, Greek is the common language until Latin replaced it.

 

[Helen]

In my small group we took a vote when we came to Hebrews, and "Written by Paul" won over "Not written by Paul", so thereafter, we referred to the writer as Presumably Paul.

Even when I was a very young christian , I found Hebrews so different from the other books... I had no idea that it had been a discussion for centuries...
It just 'read' differently to me.
But, like I say...whoever wrote it I am thankful...it is a wonderful book.

 

[marks]

Not worth discussing since, yes, we are to build each other up.
Agreed on this.

Just so!

Much love!

 

[Grailhunter]

At some point in the beginning, the O.T. was also translated into Greek.
I believe it's the septuagent...

You are correct it was the Septuagint. A good study in its own.

 

[Helen]

My vote is that it is the Holy Spirit Who is the true Author of Hebrews

Yay!!!!

 

[Grailhunter]

Yay!!!!
View attachment 7006

No fair!!! Who can disagree with that!

 

[Stan B]

Is reality a speculation for you? ...Easy enough to do, a little drink here and there...If you disagree then produce evidence of a Hebrew manuscript. Or admit that you cannot. I am just asking for one...Hebrews. Again, easy enough to look up...examples and even pictures of manuscripts are easily found. But why talk before you know?

Grailhunter, what you or anyone else believes is unimportant to me. When the scholars, after devoting a lot of time studying this, cannot agree, I am content to accept that which I have believed over the past 60 years, that Matthew and Hebrews were originally written in Hebrew, as was the majority of our Scripture.

I am confident of God's promise that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, and to that end, I feel peace in my spirit that what I believe is true.

 

[Stan B]

Only the most extreme scientists do not agree that a fetus is a living being.

Did you know that there's a spark of light when life begins?
This is so interesting and reminds me of Genesis...Let there be light.

Do you agree with partial birth abortion?
And when would YOU say that live begins?

At conception.
At the heart beat.
At the embryo resembling a human.
Just before a birth.
Just after birth.
10 minutes after birth.

This question has been debated for decades.
Are you saying we still don't know?

GodsGrace says>> "Only the most extreme scientists do not agree that a fetus is a living being."

So, you are saying that you derive your theology from scientists, rather than Scripture??

The Bible says “The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7). Adam did not become a living being until then.

Now, how could God breathe into the nostrils of that semi-formed fetus submerged in the amniotic sac when it doesn't have nostrils?? Even if it did have nostrils, it would drown before it ever had a chance of being born.

This concept is reiterated by Job:

“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the BREATH of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:44

"For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

A fetus does not become a living being until God breathes its nostrils, the breath of life, and having nostrils would seem to be a prerequisite for that to happen.

Do you disagree with what God has said?

 

[Stan B]

This is also for @Stan B ...
Not everything is speculation. (as per him).
Biblical scholars are agreed that the N.T. is written in Koine Greek (simple Greek) with a smattering of Aramaic..I don't remember where, but very little.


GH, the above is a terrific post.
Have some thought on it....
There's so much to know!
Later.

GodsGrace says>> "Biblical scholars are agreed that the N.T. is written in Koine Greek (simple Greek) with a smattering of Aramaic..I don't remember where, but very little."

You live in a different world than I do. Never ever have scholars agreed upon the idea that the entire New Testament was written in Greek. With regard to Matthew and Hebrews they seem to be soundly divided as to whether those books were written in Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic.

 

[Grailhunter]

Grailhunter, what you or anyone else believes is unimportant to me. When the scholars, after devoting a lot of time studying this, cannot agree, I am content to accept that which I have believed over the past 60 years, that Matthew and Hebrews were originally written in Hebrew, as was the majority of our Scripture.

I am confident of God's promise that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, and to that end, I feel peace in my spirit that what I believe is true.

I do not mind the belief in fundamentalism. Like I said it has saved millions. So if you say you do not believe anything outside of the Bible, that is good with me. But when you mention scholars...you are outside of the Bible. It has always been that people want to stand within the covers of the Bible and act like they are experts on what is outside of it. But beyond that what you are describing is living in the bubble that is your head and the 60 years of your life has taken you to a dead end. Which still is your prerogative. You learn no more...sad. I am 62 and still strive to learn.

 

[marks]

“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the BREATH of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:44

Hi Stan,

Are you thinking that God breathes His breath into babies when they are born, giving them life?

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

Philip, I think the confusion here is that you and I speak an entirely different version of the English language.

At the outset, you state that tens of millions of children are being murdered. But then you go onto say that they are not children, but unborn children, i.e that they have never been born, so they have never been a living being, they are merely fetuses, and you can't murder something that has never been a living being.

Also, when you go on to mention legal induced abortions, that would contradict your declaration that it is murder, since murder is the unlawful taking of life. So, if it is legal then it must be "lawful", which means it can't be murder!

Once upon a time it was 'legal' to sacrifice children to Molech too...

Men 'legalizing' murder does not change it from still being murder.

When did a woman being 'with child' morph into being 'with fetus'? When people wanted to justify murdering their children.

 

[Grailhunter]

GodsGrace says>> "Only the most extreme scientists do not agree that a fetus is a living being."

So, you are saying that you derive your theology from scientists, rather than Scripture??

The Bible says “The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7). Adam did not become a living being until then.

Now, how could God breathe into the nostrils of that semi-formed fetus submerged in the amniotic sac when it doesn't have nostrils?? Even if it did have nostrils, it would drown before it ever had a chance of being born.

This concept is reiterated by Job:

“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the BREATH of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:44

"For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

A fetus does not become a living being until God breathes its nostrils, the breath of life, and having nostrils would seem to be a prerequisite for that to happen.

Do you disagree with what God has said?

Do you disagree with what God has said?

I love these leading questions. Of course she believes what God said, the question is do you believe something that God did not say. Now it is your job to produce the scripture that indicated each and every human being is made from the dust of the earth, as in the details, in the real world. Like Abraham watched as Issac was formed from the dust of earth, right before his very eyes... If you stay in the delivery room you can see where babies come from, and then you may understand that any other reference to the dust of the earth is a metaphor. But in your old age you may not be able to learn anything else. Maybe because you do not want to learn anymore, maybe you think there is living dust in the delivery room. So far the scriptures indicate that God created Adam and Eve and that was a unique creation.

Still the debate of when a fetus is human rages on.....only because of the people that want to twist the truth. Why do you think they call it abortion and not murder? Don't sound as bad, does it! Imagine that! Two sides arguing about something that was a deception before they started. Abortion applies to animals, not humans. Terminating a human fetus is either killing or murder, depending on why you did it. Religious beliefs can start from conception. Legal definitions can call it a fetus and non-human as long as the baby is still in the mother. No one knows when a baby receives a soul, and terminating a pregnancy is either killing or murder, so one should make sure they have a good reason for killing a baby. Something much more than birth control. So murder is unjustified killing, so how do we justify killing a baby.....you better have a good reason, because someone above my pay grade, may be asking you that question when your time is up.

 

[Enoch111]

At some point in the beginning, the O.T. was also translated into Greek.
I believe it's the Septuagint...

Correct. That was about 200 BC, and primarily for Hellenistic Jews. There is a legend attached to the origin. However it is a corrupted translation of the Tanakh, and has numerous apocryphal books included. Some claim that the apostles used this translation because some of the verses correspond (which is to be expected). However many verses are directly from the Hebrew. See The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim.

 

[Stan B]

I do not mind the belief in fundamentalism. Like I said it has saved millions. So if you say you do not believe anything outside of the Bible, that is good with me. But when you mention scholars...you are outside of the Bible. It has always been that people want to stand within the covers of the Bible and act like they experts on what is outside of it. But beyond that what you are describing is living in the bubble that is your head and the 60 years of your life has taken you to a dead end. Which still is your prerogative. You learn no more...sad. I am 62 and still strive to learn.

Studying Scripture is what I have been doing for 60 years of my 77 years. Over those years, I have studied the works of many great scholars, and have discovered that rather than augmenting my understanding of God’s message to me, they are merely a distraction.

Long ago I learned to study Scripture in the format God gave me, and have learned to LISTEN to what HE is communicated to me, rather than what some ‘scholar’ is attempting to say to me.

And if you look down on that, designating it as living in a bubble, your intended insult doesn’t mean squat to to me. YOU are not the one with whom I am in communion each day.

“As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

 

[Stan B]

Hi Stan,

Are you thinking that God breathes His breath into babies when they are born, giving them life?

Much love!

They are not MY thoughts, they are God’s thoughts as He has presented them to me in Scripture.

 

[Stan B]

Correct. That was about 200 BC, and primarily for Hellenistic Jews. There is a legend attached to the origin. However it is a corrupted translation of the Tanakh, and has numerous apocryphal books included. Some claim that the apostles used this translation because some of the verses correspond (which is to be expected). However many verses are directly from the Hebrew. See The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim.

Sounds like it’s time to retrieve Alfy from my bookshelf and blow off some of the dust that that has accumulated over the decades.

 

[Grailhunter]

The story of the Septuagint is another worth while study. It involves what some call the King of Egypt which is more accurately Ptolemy II (308-246 BC) Pharoh of Ptolemaic Egypt from 283 to 246 BCE. Not to confuse, Ptolemy II was a Macedonian Greek, a son of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. It also involves Pharos Island which was the site of one of the seven wonders of the world…the Lighthouse of Alexandria. Ptolemy II’s interest in the Hebrew scriptures was more academic than religious, he was having the Hebrew texts translated to Greek….eventually all of them…including the apocryphal Hebrew books….these were translated for the Library of Alexandria, not Hellenistic Jews. I am not even sure how long it took or even if they ever accepted the Septuagint fully. It is a loose study because the details are sketchy, the stories vary, even to the point that there are more than one version of the Septuagint and some see all of story as false and the Septuagint as a corruption. It is not a good topic for debate, we only have fragments of the Septuagint and no one considers them original. St Jerome when he translated the OT from Greek to Latin did not have confidence in the Septuagint and so he used Hebrew texts when he could. This decision was reversed later. Still room for opinion, and I would not mind any thoughts on it.

 

[Grailhunter]

Studying Scripture is what I have been doing for 60 years of my 77 years. Over those years, I have studied the works of many great scholars, and have discovered that rather than augmenting my understanding of God’s message to me, they are merely a distraction.

Long ago I learned to study Scripture in the format God gave me, and have learned to LISTEN to what HE is communicated to me, rather than what some ‘scholar’ is attempting to say to me.

And if you look down on that, designating it as living in a bubble, your intended insult doesn’t mean squat to to me. YOU are not the one with whom I am in communion each day.

“As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Again you keep defining your own bubble. If your bubble saved you, that is really all that matters. God bless and carry on smartly. My issue is when you start talking about scholars and study and biblical translations, because it does not take much study to know that you are wrong. God did not not give us our gray hair to be closed minded, or stop learning. Then again belief is a right, believe what you want. But quit pushing your beliefs on the scholars, they do not agree with you.

 

[Stan B]

The story of the Septuagint is another worth while study. It involves what some call the King of Egypt which is more accurately Ptolemy II (308-246 BC) Pharoh of Ptolemaic Egypt from 283 to 246 BCE. Not to confuse, Ptolemy II was a Macedonian Greek, a son of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. It also involves Pharos Island which was the site of one of the seven wonders of the world…the Lighthouse of Alexandria. Ptolemy II’s interest in the Hebrew scriptures was more academic than religious, he was having the Hebrew texts translated to Greek….eventually all of them…including the apocryphal Hebrew books….these were translated for the Library of Alexandria, not Hellenistic Jews. I am not even sure how long it took or even if they ever accepted the Septuagint fully. It is a loose study because the details are sketchy, the stories vary, even to the point that there are more than one version of the Septuagint and some see all of story as false and the Septuagint as a corruption. It is not a good topic for debate, we only have fragments of the Septuagint and no one considers them original. St Jerome when he translated the OT from Greek to Latin did not have confidence in the Septuagint and so he used Hebrew texts when he could. This decision was reversed later. Still room for opinion, and I would not mind any thoughts on it.

Grailhununter, for what it’s worth, when you post everything in bold font, I find it really annoying, and just pass on to the next post instead of reading anything you have posted.