Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[Giuliano]

Do you understand English?
No wonder you have a problem communicating with persons.

CAN A BABY MAKE A DECISION TO BE SAVED?
What nonsense are you speaking?
And who said a person must come to a certain age to be saved?

And since I have no desire to speak to you but only want to make sure that those reading along understand since YOU'VE PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH.....words I DID NOT SAY.

Let me struggle with this. The Law of Christ says we should bear each other's burdens but eventually everyone has to bear his own. I see infant baptism in that light. The parents are taking on part of the spiritual burden of a child -- if he errs, they will pay part of the price.

Love forms a bond. If you love someone, really love him or her, that love ties the two of you together, maybe not as much as marriage would, but it's still there. If you love someone, you can be sure God will love them more than you do; and God will do His best not allow them to perish since they are part of you. So God told Isaac:

Genesis 26:24 And the Lord appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham’s sake.

God respected Abraham's love when his offspring were in Egypt:

Exodus 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

The children of Israel were told they were inheriting the Land of Promise, not because they deserved it but because of what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Deuteronomy 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

It is a wonderful idea. If you love someone, God is going to give that person extra effort on account of your love. However, you may have to help bear his burden .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Really? I hated God, embraced false religions,did over my share of drugs, stole, gambled occult etc.etc.until my heart was renewed in Christ to love God through Jesus Christ, loved righteousness and His Word...AND THEN GOT BAPTIZED.

Don't tell me what happened as far as the ordo salutis went in my life.
It seems to me, regeneration is no more than a Church doctrine rather than a real life experience.

Salvation is a process - not a one-time, slam dunk event.

As the Bible teaches - Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

The initial grace to believe is not regeneration. As Jesus said - we are regenerated at Baptism (John 3:5).
Peter (Acts 2:38-39) and Paul (Col. 2:8-15) expound on this.

 

[BreadOfLife]

1 Thessalonians 5:22 (KJV) Abstain from all appearance of evil.
But I guess your GREAT One is above God's Word.
Doesn't he realize how many have stumbled over that reckless action?

Soooooo, being grateful for a gift is NOT abstaining from evil??
This is a case of splitting hairs that ius more befitting CNN anchor or an anti-Trumper . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ha, so ignorance doesn't win! It's not an invincible obstacle.

Martyr Longinus the Centurion, who stood at the Cross of the Lord

The Holy Martyr Longinus the Centurion, a Roman soldier, served in Judea under the command of the Governor, Pontius Pilate. When our Savior Jesus Christ was crucified, it was the detachment of soldiers under the command of Longinus which stood watch on Golgotha, at the very foot of the holy Cross. Longinus and his soldiers were eyewitnesses of the final moments of the earthly life of the Lord, and of the great and awesome portents that appeared at His death. These events shook the centurion’s soul. Longinus believed in Christ and confessed before everyone, “Truly this was the Son of God” (Mt. 27:54).

Funny how you reject a Catholic teaching - then USE a Catholic tradition to make your point.

Not TOO confused, are ya . . .

 

[prism]

Soooooo, being grateful for a gift is NOT abstaining from evil??
This is a case of splitting hairs that ius more befitting CNN anchor or an anti-Trumper . . .

Your 'great Pope' is definitely no Elisha...
"And he [Namaan] returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant. But he [Elisha] said, As the LORD liveth, before whom I stand, I will receive none. And he urged him to take it; but he refused." (2Ki 5:15-16)

And you call the Koran, that antichrist pile of writings a gift? Good grief.

 

[prism]

The initial grace to believe is not regeneration. As Jesus said - we are regenerated at Baptism (John 3:5).
Peter (Acts 2:38-39) and Paul (Col. 2:8-15) expound on this.

There was absolutely no change of heart when I was water baptized. Rather something akin to this happened before...
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
(Eph 2:1-5)

and this...

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(2Co 5:17)

Sorry, my walk does not line up with your theory of water baptism.

 

[Giuliano]

Did someone raise an objection about men being TOLD about God?

I didn't.

Rom 10
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Did someone raise an objection about men READING about God IN the Scriptures?

I didn't.

My objection is to the CORRUPT who CHANGE what the Scripture SAYS, rewrite Scripture and then Give its MEANING in one of "THEIR" congregational "teaching" booklets.

OPEN your eyes...WHOM from the beginning DID God APPOINT to be hearers, listeners, keepers, speakers of HIS WORD?

Gentles?

The way you wrote sounded as if salvation was a matter between you and God alone. Me? I am grateful to God for His servants who helped me.

Help you what? READ?


Glory to God,
Taken

You could be grateful that men in the Catholic Church preserved the words in the Bible you have. Your Bible didn't drop from Heaven into your hands as a gift from God to you directly.

 

[Taken]

The way you wrote sounded as if salvation was a matter between you and God alone.

Gods Gift of Salvation was HIS Offering of HIS Gift to the entire world.

My acceptance of HIS Gift absolutely was a matter exclusively between thee Lord God and myself.

Me? I am grateful to God for His servants who helped me.

That's good for you. I am grateful for God having sent forth His WORD to me and for me.

You could be grateful that men in the Catholic Church preserved the words in the Bible you have. Your Bible didn't drop from Heaven into your hands as a gift from God to you directly.

I do not give catholics exclusive credit for preserving writings of Jesus' teachings.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Giuliano]

Gods Gift of Salvation was HIS Offering of HIS Gift to the entire world.

My acceptance of HIS Gift absolutely was a matter exclusively between thee Lord God and myself.



That's good for you. I am grateful for God having sent forth His WORD to me and for me.



I do not give catholics exclusive credit for preserving writings of Jesus' teachings.

Glory to God,
Taken

I would be afraid to be in your shoes. I hope you don't think everything is all about you and God.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

 

[Giuliano]

Funny how you reject a Catholic teaching - then USE a Catholic tradition to make your point.

Not TOO confused, are ya . . .

And funny too how people can think ignorance is invincible when we can see from the lives of the saints, it's not, not really.

I think the claim that the Church is invincible shows more faith in the Power of God.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

812 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."

 

[Taken]

I would be afraid to be in your shoes.

LOL- do tell, why...ye who is so wise and knows me. Ugh!

I hope you don't think everything is all about you and God.

Did I say that.? Uh no I didn't.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

You are Liberal right?

I speak of MY acceptance of God Gift of Salvation He offered to me...

And your response is:
You would be in fear to walk in my shoes and A lecture verse on hate. LOL

Don't know what YOU think Receiving Gods Gift of Salvation is all about.....
But is sure isn't about FEAR and HATE. <---
Learn your truths from a Catholic ?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Giuliano]

LOL- do tell, why...ye who is so wise and knows me. Ugh!

I told you why; and I'd wager most people here know what I meant even if you didn't.

Did I say that.? Uh no I didn't.

You have a reading comprehension problem if you think I said you said that.

You are Liberal right?

Now you want to put a label on me?

I speak of MY acceptance of God Gift of Salvation He offered to me...

I'm pretty sure you got help from men in that.

And your response is:
You would be in fear to walk in my shoes and A lecture verse on hate. LOL

Don't know what YOU think Receiving Gods Gift of Salvation is all about.....
But is sure isn't about FEAR and HATE. <---
Learn your truths from a Catholic ?

Glory to God,
Taken

How can anyone hear the gospel if no men were preaching it? I learned that from Acts. I don't see God personally preaching on Pentecost. I see Peter preaching.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear sister,

Do you not belive our Father answers the prayers of His children?
Do you think that He would deny the new birth and the Holy Spirit to our children when we ask Him in faith to give them the gift of faith?

I have a 15 year old boy who is unlikely to ever (in this life) be able to vocalize his faith.
But I have no doubt that Jesus dwells in him, or that he has received the Holy Spirit.
I have watched him change the hearts and lives of many who interact with him for any length of time.

Are you going to suggest that his baptism sonehow is invalid?

Peace!

Peace be with you!

DID I SAY THAT!!

My granddaughter has autism.
She loves Jesus.
She was baptized as an infant.

Baptism is REAL...it is NOT a symbol as Protestantism believes.

I know the reasons why the children of a religious family were baptized in the early days of the church...and I agree with it. We do not deny God to children.

What I'm saying is that it DOES NOT SAVE...
UNLESS, at some point in a normal person's life, that baptism is ACCEPTED.
Any priest will tell you this...not every baptized person is going to heaven. Ask yourself why not.

And yes, I use the word "normal" and I use the word "handicap". Why whitewash the truth? Why make the suffering of one we love any less so the rest of the population could not feel so badly? I like the original words. I like the truth to be raw and painful. Sorry if the rest of society does not agree with me - even some of the parents of these children don't like these words. Too bad. It is what it is and it should not be hidden behind a word.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let me struggle with this. The Law of Christ says we should bear each other's burdens but eventually everyone has to bear his own. I see infant baptism in that light. The parents are taking on part of the spiritual burden of a child -- if he errs, they will pay part of the price.

The parents should be taking on the complete burden of the spiritual burden...or growth, I would say...of their child. Why only part? The church should be involved, but the burden is with the parents and THEY are the first teachers of their child's faith. The first catechists are the parents...catechists should only be confirming what the parents have taught the child.

Unfortunately, these days this is not true, and some parents even see bringing their children to catechism class as a bother.

As to the parent paying the price if the child if he errs....I don't know what you mean by this.

Love forms a bond. If you love someone, really love him or her, that love ties the two of you together, maybe not as much as marriage would, but it's still there. If you love someone, you can be sure God will love them more than you do; and God will do His best not allow them to perish since they are part of you. So God told Isaac:

Genesis 26:24 And the Lord appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham’s sake.

God respected Abraham's love when his offspring were in Egypt:

Exodus 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

The children of Israel were told they were inheriting the Land of Promise, not because they deserved it but because of what Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Deuteronomy 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

It is a wonderful idea. If you love someone, God is going to give that person extra effort on account of your love. However, you may have to help bear his burden .

This is a most beautiful thought.
It reminds me of

1 Corinthians 7:14
14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.


I can only say I would hope your idea is true,,,,but I don't believe it is.
Doesn't love for God have to be personal?

 

[Taken]

Salvation is a process - not a one-time, slam dunk event.

As the Bible teaches - Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

LOL ~ Still teaching that JEWISH VAIL hangs between a Gentile and Salvation....

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

Because you lack truth and understanding you have to twist the truth into a lie.

The initial grace to believe is not regeneration. As Jesus said - we are regenerated at Baptism (John 3:5).
Peter (Acts 2:38-39) and Paul (Col. 2:8-15) expound on this.

LOL ~ Still teaching your hocus pocus made up Catholic Doctine.

1 Cor 2:
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Wisdom of men...LOL

"Initial grace"....
"Initial salvation"...
"Final sanctification"...

Gods Grace is His unmerited favor in the form of a Gift, that men may or may not accept.

Any nitwit should know there is a LEARNING PROCESS to Learn ABOUT God ABOUT the Lord....which is called being enlightened...LEARNING THE TRUTH ABOUT God, WHO IS LIGHT!

And after TASTING THE TRUTH of thee Lord God....THEN a man is prepared to make a Decision/Choice/ELECTION...to CHOOSE thee Lord God....or NOT.

I suppose you are one of those people WHO makes Choices and Agreements WITHOUT a CLUE what you are Agreeing to....eh? LOL

It is not while you are LEARNING ABOUT something that you AGREE TO IT Dunce...

Ever agree to buy a home or land or vehicle or get a bank loan...? And what? Did you read the Contract and become enlightened to what you were agreeing to and obligating yourself to? Some of those types of Contracts can be about 2 inches thick....I would presume you let someone else read it for you and tell you in their words what they think it says....

Making an Agreement with the Lord is NOT a drawn out process Dunce.
Salvation is a GIFT offered by and from the Lord and Given by and from the Lord to A MAN, the moment a man Confesses heartfelt belief IN God and IN Jesus.

Well, there IS ONE EXCEPTION....SALVATION of the Lord is NOT Given to ANY MAN who REJECTS BELIEF IN Jesus, the Lord.

Oh, my...It seems you are utterly unaware...
WHO believes IN God....but NOT Jesus!

Oh, my...It seems you are utterly unaware...Jesus came SEEKING the Jews, who were drifting away FROM God.

Oh, my...It seems you are utterly unaware...Not only was Jesus intent in bringing the Jews BACK into the FOLD of God, but ALSO teaching THEM....ABOUT His GIFT of SALVATION "offered" to them....RIGHT THEN!

Oh, my....It seems you are utterly unaware...
JEWS, believing IN God, but NOT Jesus, REMAIN UNDER THEIR LAW....and RECEIVE their SALVATION at the END of their NATURAL LIFE...."IF" they have LIVED their Life..."ACCORDING TO THE LAW, they chose to BE UNDER" !

You use Scripture of Jewish Men teaching Jewish Men that Salvation has come AMONG THEM...(not you, not Gentiles)... JEWS teaching Jews, in Jewish temples, town, cities....reciting familiar Jewish Laws and teaching about Jesus and His Offering.

Then you APPLY to yourself....what you call in your hokey words...."final salvation"...after having "endured to the end"... LOL

THAT applies to a JEW who believes IN God, and NOT In Jesus.....and DUH....who DID not receive the Gift of Salvation.....since DUH...they don't believe in Jesus the Lord.

THEIR ENDURANCE....is by their OWN power to Follow the Law to the end of their lives..... without the POWER of God "IN THEM"....

And that APPLIES to YOU...eh...a Gentile? LOL

And you saying men who lie to other men are committing a sin....or men who call other men names are committing a sin....LOL...

ACCORDING TO WHAT? Jewish Law...

LOL.

Your understanding is whack.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[epostle]

I do not give catholics exclusive credit for preserving writings of Jesus' teachings.
Glory to God,
Taken

That's called denial, but in your case, it's also invincible ignorance. That means holding on to such a falsehood is not entirely your fault.

 

[farouk]

The parents should be taking on the complete burden of the spiritual burden...or growth, I would say...of their child. Why only part? The church should be involved, but the burden is with the parents and THEY are the first teachers of their child's faith. The first catechists are the parents...catechists should only be confirming what the parents have taught the child.

Unfortunately, these days this is not true, and some parents even see bringing their children to catechism class as a bother.

As to the parent paying the price if the child if he errs....I don't know what you mean by this.


This is a most beautiful thought.
It reminds me of

1 Corinthians 7:14
14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.


I can only say I would hope your idea is true,,,,but I don't believe it is.
Doesn't love for God have to be personal?

Ephesians 6 has a great pattern for family relationships in relation to Divine things.

 

[Taken]

Philip James ~ GodsGrace

When Gods Word teaches His Truth, do you then pray and Ask God for what ALREADY is?

Children are Gods gift to parents, for the parents to teach, raise, feed, clothe, provide for.

Scripture says...

WHEN a man is without Excuse..

Rom 1
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Clearly to be WITH EXCUSE, one must NOT have the capacity to discern good and evil.
Babies do not have that capacity.
Regardless of AGE, lack of mental capacity retards a person of any AGE to make informed decisions.

God does not reject those "WITHOUT" the capacity to reason and make choices.
Should such a person die....

Jer 1:
[5] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee...


Deut 1:
[39] Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

PARENTS...

Prov 22:6
[6] Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Luke 18:16
[16] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children
to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Just saying, I trust God has a provision for those who should pass away without having had the capacity to make their declaration of Belief. We know God knows a persons heart, regardless of age... right?

I don't find it taught for men to declare the belief on behalf of an other, as some sort of "just in case / making sure" God doesn't forget about their child.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians 6 has a great pattern for family relationships in relation to Divine things.

Agreed.
But how many families that call themselves Christian really follow this model?
I believe very few...I've seen this in my own family.
Some parents don't even bring their children to church,,,and yet they call themselves Christian.

 

[farouk]

Agreed.
But how many families that call themselves Christian really follow this model?
I believe very few...I've seen this in my own family.
Some parents don't even bring their children to church,,,and yet they call themselves Christian.

Well, it's a privilege and a responsibility before God.