Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How does that apply to Protestants unless they live somewhere where religious freedom is prohibited and Catholics cannot work to inform them? That could easily describe the kind of ignorance seen in the early Anglican Church when the British sovereigns refused to allow people to have religious freedom. I can see how that kind of ignorance would be "invincible." I don't see how it would apply today.
And that's the scary part.

However - there are MANY people who aren't exposed to the truth from birth - yes, even today.
But with social media and the internet - that door is closing . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Great cover up. If only those were the only issues...
What "cover up"?
Care to expound on that?

Ummmm, is it anything like the "cover up" when Ellen G. White predicted that Christ would return in June of 1845 - only to change her story to September of that year when He didn't return??
Is that the kind of "cover up" you're referring to??
 

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And that's the scary part.

However - there are MANY people who aren't exposed to the truth from birth - yes, even today.
But with social media and the internet - that door is closing . . .
Whatever the truth may be, I believe it will win in the end. I don't think ignorance can win so I wouldn't call it invincible.
 
Last edited:
B

brakelite

Guest
By all means.
What "cover up"?
Care to expound on that?
Epostle spoke of fruit, and what He said was true. But no one I know is talking about or questioning the fruit of genuine Catholics. And I don't know anyone who says a Catholic displaying good fruit and has a clear love and regard for Jesus trusting in Him for salvation isn't a Christian. There are many good Christians within the Catholic church. That isn't the issue. The question is, is there salvation outside the Catholic church, and does the Catholic church by policy and practice respect other faith paradigms? The answer is no, unless it suits her reputation to demonstrate inclusiveness as through ecumenism. The historical policy of the Catholic church for many centuries was to encourage the state to root out all heretics... Encourage parishioners to inform on their relatives and neighbours... To extirpate the earth ( her own words) from every evil influence. The church's most celebrated doctor of divinity, Thomas Aquinas, taught and encouraged the killing of heretics and the stealing of their possessions. The priests who were witnessing the tortures of the heretics weren't there to give solace and protest the grievous vicious practices of the ones in charge of the proceedings. The state was doing exactly what the church instructed them to do under threat of excommunication if they didn't... Priests were held in awe and greatly feared for centuries... Everyone knew that one word from them and prison awaited... Not mercy. So yes. Great cover up. Centuries of cruel despotic tyrannical history covered up and today denied as the mere random over exuberant extremes of the odd sinner. That it was church policy, and still is, is also denied. And called a lie. Isn't it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: prism

prism

Blood-Soaked
Jan 24, 2011
1,895
834
113
So. Cal
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sooooooo, you are prepared to make an asinine and indefensible statement like, “The MAJORITY of Catholics are living like heathens”?? You actually know 1.2 BILLION people well enough to make this kind of claim??

And you are ALSO prepared to make the equally asinine claim that there are ZERO reprobate or Protestants and that this is only a CATHOLIC dynamic?? What planet are YOU from??

I know PLENTY of “born again” Protestants who went astray and are some of the WORST people I’ve ever met. I can say the same for come Catholics. That doesn’t mean that they weren’t born again. It simply means that they fell away and turned their backs on Christ.

YOUR problem is that you actually believe in the man-made 16th century Protestant doctrine of OSAS – which is NOT supported by Scripture.

As to your claim that I “deny” that the writings of the Prophets and Apostles are the basis for the historical Christian faith. But, with all of the other lies you’ve spewn – maybe you’re just delusional . . .
Please go try and proselyte someone else to your 'religion'. I am wasting my time here.

I will follow my Lord's admonishment...

Matthew 15:14 (KJV) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
 

prism

Blood-Soaked
Jan 24, 2011
1,895
834
113
So. Cal
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
“Figurative” water??
WRONG.

John 1
ACTUAL WATER
is used in the Baptism of Christ – and the Holy Spirit appears in the form of a Dove.

John 2
ACTUAL WATER
is used at the Wedding at Cana when Christ transforms WATER into Wine.

John 3
ACTUAL WATER
is being described in verse 5 when Jesus tells Nicodemus about Baptism.

Immediately after this, Jesus and the apostles use ACTUAL WATER to Baptize people.

The first THREE Chapters of John’s Gospel are literally DRENCHED in ACTUAL WATER.

Not ONE commentary or exegesis on John 3 exists in the first 1500 years of the Christian Church that agrees with YOUR position.
ALL of them described it as a reference to BAPTISM.

Ummmmmm, WHY is that??
Ditto...
Matthew 15:14 (KJV) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Why do you think the lifting of the brazen serpent was mentioned in the middle of His discourse on being born again?
I pray you receive that new nature some day as Catholics need Jesus too. :)
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? <---OP

Evidence would suggest salvation is a gift of God, given men NOT within the catholic church.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

epostle

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2018
859
289
63
72
essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
John 3:5 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I already answered this.
But since you don't care for what I have to say, here is John Gill on the passage...

..."except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are, מלות שנות, "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God. The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "the Holy Spirit", and so Nonnus; and who doubtless is intended: by "water", is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptized, as Simon Magus was, and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state; yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptized, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see Eze_36:25. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to, a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures: and if Nicodemus was an officer in the temple, that took care to provide water at the feasts, as Dr. Lightfoot thinks, and as it should seem Nicodemon ben Gorion was, by the story before related of him; See Gill on Joh_3:1; very pertinently does our Lord make mention of water, it being his own element: regeneration is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, as in 1Pe_1:3, and sometimes to the Son, 1Jn_2:29 and here to the Spirit, as in Tit_3:5, who convinces of sin, sanctifies, renews, works faith, and every other grace; begins and carries on the work of grace, unto perfection;
John Gill invents "non-material", "metaphorical" water, and both Luther and Calvin baptized infants. You accept Gill's opinions as doctrinal. This is theological chaos.
 

epostle

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2018
859
289
63
72
essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Ignorance means not knowing. Someone who is ignorant can be educated, so why say their ignorance is invincible? If the gates of hell won't prevail, why think the ignorance of Protestants is so powerful?

If we say Protestants have invincible ignorance, it suggests weakness on the part of the Catholic Church as if their wisdom is impotent. I find it a curious phrase.
The Church cannot impose truth, she can only propose truth to those who are disposed to receive it.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
The Church cannot impose truth, she can only propose truth to those who are disposed to receive it.
Be great if your church made that ongoing policy, then the world would be a much safer place for everyone.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
John Gill invents "non-material", "metaphorical" water, and both Luther and Calvin baptized infants. You accept Gill's opinions as doctrinal. This is theological chaos.
And Catholics accuse evangelicals of being too literal.
 

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? <---OP

Evidence would suggest salvation is a gift of God, given men NOT within the catholic church.

Glory to God,
Taken
How would you know about God if no one ever told you about Him? How could we read the Bible if men had not written them and other men preserved them? I am grateful to God for the men He used to help me. I am grateful to them and to God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Church cannot impose truth, she can only propose truth to those who are disposed to receive it.
What was the Gospel Jesus and his disciples preached before his Crucifixion? What was the Gospel that had already been preached to "every living creature" in Paul's day?

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Colossians 1:23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;




 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Please go try and proselyte someone else to your 'religion'. I am wasting my time here.

I will follow my Lord's admonishment...

Matthew 15:14 (KJV) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
That’s fine with me.

HOWEVER – I will expose you every time you make your moronic and indefensible accusations about the Church, so try to keep it honest . . .
 

prism

Blood-Soaked
Jan 24, 2011
1,895
834
113
So. Cal
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John Gill invents "non-material", "metaphorical" water, and both Luther and Calvin baptized infants. You accept Gill's opinions as doctrinal. This is theological chaos.
Criticism's are a dime-a-dozen. No substance here.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Whatever the truth may be, I believe it will win in the end. I don't think ignorance can win so I wouldn't call it invincible.
And I'm not counting on ignorance for MY situation – but Christ Himself stated that those who have NOT been exposed to the truth may receive mercy (John 9:41, 15:22).

Jesus said it – I BELIEVE it.
 

prism

Blood-Soaked
Jan 24, 2011
1,895
834
113
So. Cal
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That’s fine with me.

HOWEVER – I will expose you every time you make your moronic and indefensible accusations about the Church, so try to keep it honest . . .
Go ahead and waste your time...

Matthew 15:14 KJV
[14] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
MY Church doesn't teach that a baby needs to make a decision to be saved - and neither does it teach that a person must come to a certain age in in order to be saved.
The onus is on YOU to show this teaching - not on ME to prove a negative . . .
Do you understand English?
No wonder you have a problem communicating with persons.

CAN A BABY MAKE A DECISION TO BE SAVED?
What nonsense are you speaking?
And who said a person must come to a certain age to be saved?

And since I have no desire to speak to you but only want to make sure that those reading along understand since YOU'VE PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH.....words I DID NOT SAY.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Giuliano and prism

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ditto...
Matthew 15:14 (KJV) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Why do you think the lifting of the brazen serpent was mentioned in the middle of His discourse on being born again?
I pray you receive that new nature some day as Catholics need Jesus too. :)
I was regenerated at Baptism (John 3:5).
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
By all means.

Epostle spoke of fruit, and what He said was true. But no one I know is talking about or questioning the fruit of genuine Catholics. And I don't know anyone who says a Catholic displaying good fruit and has a clear love and regard for Jesus trusting in Him for salvation isn't a Christian. There are many good Christians within the Catholic church. That isn't the issue. The question is, is there salvation outside the Catholic church, and does the Catholic church by policy and practice respect other faith paradigms? The answer is no, unless it suits her reputation to demonstrate inclusiveness as through ecumenism. The historical policy of the Catholic church for many centuries was to encourage the state to root out all heretics... Encourage parishioners to inform on their relatives and neighbours... To extirpate the earth ( her own words) from every evil influence. The church's most celebrated doctor of divinity, Thomas Aquinas, taught and encouraged the killing of heretics and the stealing of their possessions. The priests who were witnessing the tortures of the heretics weren't there to give solace and protest the grievous vicious practices of the ones in charge of the proceedings. The state was doing exactly what the church instructed them to do under threat of excommunication if they didn't... Priests were held in awe and greatly feared for centuries... Everyone knew that one word from them and prison awaited... Not mercy. So yes. Great cover up. Centuries of cruel despotic tyrannical history covered up and today denied as the mere random over exuberant extremes of the odd sinner. That it was church policy, and still is, is also denied. And called a lie. Isn't it.
The Church has tried to “cover up” history??

I learned about the Church’s mistakes from the CHURCHnot from history books. The Church has taken its lumps from the past and has PUBLICLY admitted them – AND apologized for them.
NOT sure why you would make this nonsensical claim.