Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[Taken]

I told you why; and I'd wager most people here know what I meant even if you didn't.

I would wager you were speaking to me about me and I asked you to be more clear of your meaning....I am not a clairvoyant or care what other people got from your words.

If you don't know, just say so.

You have a reading comprehension problem if you think I said you said that.

I responded to what you "hoped"..

Now you want to put a label on me?

Putting a label on you would have been in the form of a sentence....did you not notice it was a question??

I'm pretty sure you got help from men in that.

Based ON WHAT INFORMATION? Do tell...lol

How can anyone hear the gospel if no men were preaching it? I learned that from Acts. I don't see God personally preaching on Pentecost. I see Peter preaching.

You do realize Scripture was written 2,000 years ago? Eh? I would surmise thousands of people have learned to read and thousands have been privy to owning their own Family Bibles.

And what about the DEAF? Too bad?

Hope you don't think everything is only about you....

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

That's called denial, but in your case, it's also invincible ignorance. That means holding on to such a falsehood is not entirely your fault.

LOL...Denial, Ignorance, Falsehood....because I do not accredit Catholics exclusively for perserving the Apostles writings?

No biased there eh? LOL

So what's your point...you give Catholics exclusive credit for perserving the Apostles writings?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

Philip James ~ GodsGrace

When Gods Word teaches His Truth, do you then pray and Ask God for what ALREADY is?

Children are Gods gift to parents, for the parents to teach, raise, feed, clothe, provide for.

Scripture says...

WHEN a man is without Excuse..

Rom 1
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Clearly to be WITH EXCUSE, one must NOT have the capacity to discern good and evil.
Babies do not have that capacity.
Regardless of AGE, lack of mental capacity retards a person of any AGE to make informed decisions.

God does not reject those "WITHOUT" the capacity to reason and make choices.
Should such a person die....

Jer 1:
[5] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee...


Deut 1:
[39] Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

PARENTS...

Prov 22:6
[6] Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Luke 18:16
[16] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children
to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Just saying, I trust God has a provision for those who should pass away without having had the capacity to make their declaration of Believe. We know God knows a persons heart, regardless of age... right?

I don't find it taught for men to declare the belief on behalf of an other, as some sort of "just in case / making sure" God doesn't forget about their child.

Glory to God,
Taken

I agree with all you've said.

I stated that I understand why the early church, right after Jesus ascension, infants were indeed baptized. This can be confirmed by the writings of these men.

The reasons why are interesting.

1. Baptism is a rite of initiation into the church. A welcoming into the community of believers.

2. The imprint of Christ marks the one who is going to belong to Him..hopefully this child. In the early church this was very much desired by the parents...it is somewhat lost today for the majority who seek baptism for their child.

3. Satan is renounced and the infant is annointed with oil.

4. The child becomes entrusted to the church, to the faith of the church.

5. The child is then born of water and the spirit.

6. The child is baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit...thus life into the Holy Trinity begins and death to sin.

7. Parents become the nurturers in the life of this child which God has entrusted to them.


The cc teaches that infant baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate.
There must be personal growth for salvation. This is what I refer to as "accepting the Holy Spirit".

(items 1-7 taken from the CCC no. 1231 - 1252)

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL...Denial, Ignorance, Falsehood....because I do not accredit Catholics exclusively for perserving the Apostles writings?

No biased there eh? LOL

So what's your point...you give Catholics exclusive credit for perserving the Apostles writings?

Glory to God,
Taken

The Apostles (some) wrote some of the N.T.
Those that came after them DID preserve the writings.

What church do YOU think was around back then?

 

[GodsGrace]

Philip James ~ GodsGrace

When Gods Word teaches His Truth, do you then pray and Ask God for what ALREADY is?

Children are Gods gift to parents, for the parents to teach, raise, feed, clothe, provide for.

Scripture says...

WHEN a man is without Excuse..

Rom 1
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Clearly to be WITH EXCUSE, one must NOT have the capacity to discern good and evil.
Babies do not have that capacity.
Regardless of AGE, lack of mental capacity retards a person of any AGE to make informed decisions.

God does not reject those "WITHOUT" the capacity to reason and make choices.
Should such a person die....

Jer 1:
[5] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee...


Deut 1:
[39] Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

PARENTS...

Prov 22:6
[6] Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Luke 18:16
[16] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children
to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Just saying, I trust God has a provision for those who should pass away without having had the capacity to make their declaration of Belief. We know God knows a persons heart, regardless of age... right?

I don't find it taught for men to declare the belief on behalf of an other, as some sort of "just in case / making sure" God doesn't forget about their child.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken,,,
I truly don't know what you're talking about.
What did I post to bring this about?
OF COURSE the unable are not judged like we are.

Do you mean "on behalf of another" in the question of baptism?
I believe I replied to you in no., 623.

NO ONE can choose for another person.
There's some misunderstanding here.

Each person, those who are able, must choose God for themselves.
Those who are not able are left to the merciful God that we know and love.
In heaven, they will be just like us.

 

[farouk]

Do you mean "on behalf of another" in the question of baptism?

As I see it, it's definitely the individual who is responsible for taking the step of baptism (Acts 2.41).

 

[GodsGrace]

As I see it, it's definitely the individual who is responsible for taking the step of baptism (Acts 2.41).

I agree.
But I also know that the early church did do this...(baptize infants)
and I understand why.

I also don't believe it is ONLY symbolic as Protestantism teaches.
I hope you saw my reply to Taken. no. 623

 

[farouk]

I agree.
But I also know that the early church did do this...(baptize infants)
and I understand why.

I also don't believe it is ONLY symbolic as Protestantism teaches.
I hope you saw my reply to Taken. no. 623

Well, I do think it's a matter of entire personal responsibility and it's symbolic as a public declaration and identification with the cause of the crucified and risen Christ (Acts 2.41), which then leads to the continuing corporate behavior outlined in Acts 2.42.

 

[Taken]

I agree with all you've said.

I stated that I understand why the early church, right after Jesus ascension, infants were indeed baptized. This can be confirmed by the writings of these men.

The reasons why are interesting.

1. Baptism is a rite of initiation into the church. A welcoming into the community of believers.

That I agree...Water Baptism is a common validation to allow ANYONE to JOIN the membership of that church.

Dip the person in water, give them a cute little certificate, church keeps a record....and that person becomes a member of that church and can "transfer" their membership, BY "LETTER" verification, to any other church.

If the person themselves are not CHOOSING TO JOIN....then what? Is that not cohersion, forcing, acting without the individuals knowledge? Humm?

And where it is taught God Forces anyone to choose Him?

2. The imprint of Christ marks the one who is going to belong to Him..hopefully this child. In the early church this was very much desired by the parents...it is somewhat lost today for the majority who seek baptism for their child.

Backwards...It like signing a baby without hands up for a sign-language class.

The Becoming a member of a church should be according to the individuals DESIRE...not forced. Like one could force another to believe them or love them....it's fake.

3. Satan is renounced and the infant is annointed with oil.

How can a baby RENOUNCE an evil spirit and more than he can ACCEPT a Holy Spirit? He knows not yet, good and evil.

4. The child becomes entrusted to the church, to the faith of the church.

That I agree. It is the parents giving their church "their permission" to raise their child according to that churches Doctrine....and if it is a Catholic Church....they are in short order taught their allegience is to the "CATHOLIC" church....NOTHING whatsoever anything Jesus taught.

5. The child is then born of water and the spirit.

Fallacy. A person is born of Gods Spirit, when they Confess HEARTFELT Belief in God and Jesus the Christ.

6. The child is baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit...thus life into the Holy Trinity begins and death to sin.

Lots of people have USED the Lords Name in their MADE UP traditions and ceremonies that have nothing to do with what the Lord taught.

They are "supposedly" born of God....and experience "death to sin".... Really? Then why are they taught (according to Jewish Law), that they STILL SIN...?

Which is it....they are Gentiles pretending to be Under Jewish Law?
Death to sin....? But NOT really?

7. Parents become the nurturers in the life of this child which God has entrusted to them.

THAT ^ didn't happen in a Catholic ceremony!
Parents have been entrusted to care for and nurture their children since...forever.

And those who DO NOT care for their own are WORST than unbelievers. How many "christians" are part of the welfare dole recipients that is upward of 1 trillion dollars a year?

What do you think is worst than an unbeliever ?

The cc teaches that infant baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate.
There must be personal growth for salvation. This is what I refer to as "accepting the Holy Spirit".

(items 1-7 taken from the CCC no. 1231 - 1252)

Sounds hokey...
Baptism of the Holy Spirit without one having confessed Belief....
Signed u as a church member without one having confessed Belief....
And Sometime AFTER one has received the goodies....THEN they LEARN ABOUT GOD?

Just how it went with the Disciples.....LOL...
NOT.

Maybe the catholics are primarily car and time-share salesmen.....sign here, don't worry about what it says.....Ya, pretty much Pelosi's vile and worthy of dismissal from Congress, speech to her minions.....sign it, read it later......

Hokey and NOT Scriptural .

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

But I also know that the early church did do this...(baptize infants)
and I understand why.

WHY...? Do they NOT TRUST God has it handled?

I also don't believe it is ONLY symbolic as Protestantism teaches.

I believe when a person, no matter where they are, confesses heartfelt belief in God and Christ the Lord Jesus....that is the moment they BECOME saved and quickened, along with receiving several other gifts....

Water, an altar, special clothes, a statue, a cleric, a ceremony, flowers, crosses hanging on the wall, a room full of people....blah, blah, the pomp and whoopala.

None of that is required....Those are man made traditions.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I do think it's a matter of entire personal responsibility and it's symbolic as a public declaration and identification with the cause of the crucified and risen Christ (Acts 2.41), which then leads to the continuing corporate behavior outlined in Acts 2.42.

I do have a question for you....

Why would Jesus instruct the Apostles to teach and to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:19
IF baptism is ONLY the sign of an inner change?
WHY would this symbolism be needed?
To impress those we know? (that we have become Christian).
Why?

 

[farouk]

I do have a question for you....

Why would Jesus instruct the Apostles to teach and to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:19
IF baptism is ONLY the sign of an inner change?
WHY would this symbolism be needed?
To impress those we know? (that we have become Christian).
Why?

If we read John's Gospel carefully, we see that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are over and over intimately involved in the converting, transforming work of God. This transformation is not operated by the symbol of baptism, but the symbol is a public acknowledgment of the profession of dependence on the the work of the Triune God.

 

[GodsGrace]

That I agree...Water Baptism is a common validation to allow ANYONE to JOIN the membership of that church.

Dip the person in water, give them a cute little certificate, church keeps a record....and that person becomes a member of that church and can "transfer" their membership, BY "LETTER" verification, to any other church.

If the person themselves are not CHOOSING TO JOIN....then what? Is that not cohersion, forcing, acting without the individuals knowledge? Humm?

And where it is taught God Forces anyone to choose Him?



Backwards...It like signing a baby without hands up for a sign-language class.

The Becoming a member of a church should be according to the individuals DESIRE...not forced. Like one could force another to believe them or love them....it's fake.



How can a baby RENOUNCE an evil spirit and more than he can ACCEPT a Holy Spirit? He knows not yet, good and evil.



That I agree. It is the parents giving their church "their permission" to raise their child according to that churches Doctrine....and if it is a Catholic Church....they are in short order taught their allegience is to the "CATHOLIC" church....NOTHING whatsoever anything Jesus taught.



Fallacy. A person is born of Gods Spirit, when they Confess HEARTFELT Belief in God and Jesus the Christ.



Lots of people have USED the Lords Name in their MADE UP traditions and ceremonies that have nothing to do with what the Lord taught.

They are "supposedly" born of God....and experience "death to sin".... Really? Then why are they taught (according to Jewish Law), that they STILL SIN...?

Which is it....they are Gentiles pretending to be Under Jewish Law?
Death to sin....? But NOT really?



THAT ^ didn't happen in a Catholic ceremony!
Parents have been entrusted to care for and nurture their children since...forever.

And those who DO NOT care for their own are WORST than unbelievers. How many "christians" are part of the welfare dole recipients that is upward of 1 trillion dollars a year?

What do you think is worst than an unbeliever ?



Sounds hokey...
Baptism of the Holy Spirit without one having confessed Belief....
Signed u as a church member without one having confessed Belief....
And Sometime AFTER one has received the goodies....THEN they LEARN ABOUT GOD?

Just how it went with the Disciples.....LOL...
NOT.

Maybe the catholics are primarily car and time-share salesmen.....sign here, don't worry about what it says.....Ya, pretty much Pelosi's vile and worthy of dismissal from Congress, speech to her minions.....sign it, read it later......

Hokey and NOT Scriptural .

Glory to God,
Taken

Of course I agree with much of what you've said which is why I left the cc.

I was trying to state why they do this.
I also agree with some of the reasons why it's done.

Since I believe that baptism is a real happening...satan can be denounced even if the baby does not believe yet. Of course, it's still up to that baby to decide, at some point, if he wants to accept the Holy Spirit and follow God. If not,,,then the Holy Spirit will not be with him and satan can work in that person.

A priest once told me that some persons go back to the church to get UN-BAPTIZED because they are so deep into atheism. He told them this is impossible because of the mark that is received.

Then, I'd have to ask: What is the good of having a mark if the person does not even want to be Christian?

Could you respond to post 631 to farouk?

 

[GodsGrace]

If we read John's Gospel carefully, we see that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are over and over intimately involved in the converting, transforming work of God. This transformation is not operated by the symbol of baptism, but the symbol is a public acknowledgment of the profession of dependence on the the work of the Triune God.

This reply is too simple for me.
It's not that I disagree...it's that I believe there is much more that we can't understand.
None of us can...we're limited in our knowledge of the supernatural world of God.

 

[farouk]

What is the good of having a mark if the person does not even want to be Christian?

Hence I would say, it should be a conscious responsibility of the individual; and we see that in Acts 2.41 it was conscious individuals who evidently received the preached word gladly...and thus were baptised.

 

[GodsGrace]

WHY...? Do they NOT TRUST God has it handled?



I believe when a person, no matter where they are, confesses heartfelt belief in God and Christ the Lord Jesus....that is the moment they BECOME saved and quickened, along with receiving several other gifts....

Water, an altar, special clothes, a statue, a cleric, a ceremony, flowers, crosses hanging on the wall, a room full of people....blah, blah, the pomp and whoopala.

None of that is required....Those are man made traditions.

Glory to God,
Taken

I do believe that some hoopala is necessary for humans.

Like having a ceremony for a marriage.
It kind of helps the two persons really understand and believe that something important has happened.

I'm not attending a church right now for various reasons...but I do believe it's also important to get up on Sunday, get dressed up, and go to church and be with other Christians and hear the Word of God in a group. I guess Paul thought this too (Hebrews)...being in a Christian group is important, I think.

I also think there's something wrong with every church....
Man seems to mess up everything.

 

[farouk]

I... go to church and be with other Christians and hear the Word of God in a group. I guess Paul thought this too (Hebrews)...being in a Christian group is important, I think.

Acts 2.42: "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

 

[farouk]

The Apostles (some) wrote some of the N.T.
Those that came after them DID preserve the writings.

What church do YOU think was around back then?

All except Acts and Luke were written by an Apostle, as I understand; and of course Acts by Luke is Acts of the Apostles.

 

[GodsGrace]

All except Acts and Luke were written by an Apostle, as I understand; and of course Acts by Luke is Acts of the Apostles.

Hmmmm.
I'll go with a "no comment".
LOL

 

[farouk]

Of course I agree with much of what you've said which is why I left the cc.

For me Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 about the one offering, would be pivotal...