Can we think God makes defective vessels?
It is not a question of being defective. It is a question of being of God.
satan was perfect in every way, yet he was a murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44)
Stranger
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Can we think God makes defective vessels?
The implication is there if we say some people are damned and there's nothing they can do about it.
We are told what His purpose was. God loved us. God is Love. It wasn't to consign anyone to hellfire for eternity.
If God is not willing that any should perish, would He make anyone knowing in advance they must perish?
Do you all think God knows who will chose Him and who will not?
I say no ,welcoming thoughts.Will elaborate more after a few responses
n2t,
You gave no Scripture to support your view that God's omniscience does not cover those chosen in Christ and those who reject him.
There is a clear Scripture that opposes your OP:
To God’s elect, exiles, scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
That is about the elect. It doesn't say anything about the non-elect.
You also write about "omniscience" when the Bible says God does not see some things and also forgets some things. What we humans think about "knowing" may not be worth much to God.
I would not infer that. I would not assume my understanding is equal to His, that I can infer what God thinks. This speaks about nations who did not "know" God:Giuliano,
Yes, 1 Pet 1:1-2 (NIV) is about God's foreknowledge of the elect but that automatically infers that the God of all knowledge would know who the non-elect are. This is further emphasised in Psalm 147:5 (NRSV), 'Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure'. The ERV translates this verse as, 'Our Lord is great and powerful. There is no limit to what he knows'.
Oz
I would not infer that. I would not assume my understanding is equal to His, that I can infer what God thinks. This speaks about nations who did not "know" God:
Isaiah 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not,
and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee
because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel;
for he hath glorified thee.
6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found,
call ye upon him while he is near:
7 let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts:
and let him return unto the Lord,
and he will have mercy upon him;
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I'm not questioning the fact that some people are foreknown by God.It seems I wasn't clear in the point I was making. I Peter 1:1-2 (NIV) demonstrates that God has foreknowledge of who will be in the elect.
Is -- present tense.However, this same God with the same knowledge states, 'Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account' (Heb 4:13 NIV).
Now you're saying God "foreknows" everyone? That's not what I read -- I read that those God foreknows, He calls, etc.So God knows all of the damned as well as the elect.
When we read that Jacob was elect and Esau was not, perhaps we should study what the Old Testament has to say about Esau. Only then can we derive God's intention for Esau and his descendants. We will see how God intended to bless Esau eventually. Jacob, being elect, was already blessed; and it would be through Jacob that God wanted Esau to be blessed.
Ruth came from a cursed tribe. What can we make of that?
Do you all think God knows who will chose Him and who will not?
Yes.
Foreknowledge does not require predetermination, that is, just because God foreknows what individuals will or will not be saved does not mean God predetermined it.
Before the world began, God predetermined that He would have a class of people unto Himself (Ephesians 1:4-5) and God predetermined this class of people would be saved "in Christ' be "holy and without blame" and be called "sons". God predetermined there would be a group, class of people that would be saved (Christians) but God never predetermined for man which men would or would not be in this predetermined, foreknown group. God leaves that up to man to choose to be in this group or not for if God alone solely chose for men that woud make God a respecter of persons when He is not Romans 2:11; Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35
The fact foreknowledge does not require predetermination can be seen in Jonah 3 and 1 Samuel 23.There is a film called the butterfly effect which explores this problem. You can change the incidents, but it does not necessarily change the choices and outcome of events. There are key turning points in peoples lives, which boundary and set what is possible and what is not.
I become more convinced that in reality most will just react negatively to the Lord when they meet.
And ultimately this is the nature of eternity and who God is. It is this meeting that is the profound reality of eternity.
Paul talks about presenting believers as pure and blameless.
It is this that I find fascinating. God declares His people as pure and Holy. We have a hard time grasping these ideas, let alone walking in them. For some guys I know, to find a receptive woman is enough to just fall into sin, without a second thought. Jesus calls us to rise above our desires and to see the eternal nature of love, faithfulness, love, commitment and truth. For me this has only been possible through knowing the cross and price Jesus paid to walk this path. It puts things into a totally different perspective. God bless you
The fact foreknowledge does not require predetermination can be seen in Jonah 3 and 1 Samuel 23.
What does it mean to be "chosen"?
When we read that Jacob was elect and Esau was not, perhaps we should study what the Old Testament has to say about Esau. Only then can we derive God's intention for Esau and his descendants. We will see how God intended to bless Esau eventually. Jacob, being elect, was already blessed; and it would be through Jacob that God wanted Esau to be blessed.
Ruth came from a cursed tribe. What can we make of that?
I implied nothing. I simply directed you to Romans 9-11. You can draw you own conclusions.The implication is there if we say some people are damned and there's nothing they can do about it.
We are told what His purpose was. God loved us. God is Love. It wasn't to consign anyone to hellfire for eternity.
If God is not willing that any should perish, would He make anyone knowing in advance they must perish?
You inspire me to write about it. I see the Love of God in it. One hint about it is in Genesis:“Jacob, being elect, was already blessed; and it would be through Jacob that God wanted Esau to be blessed.”
Wouldn't surprise me if that were true. Luke 15:30-32 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. [31] And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. [32] It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
I would rather people bless me, but I can't stop them gnashing their teeth if that's their response.You want to get some gnashing of teeth...keep saying things like that. Through those ‘chosen’ to be conformed to the image of His Son...nations will be blessed. Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
You certainly were implying that God as Potter could fashion vessels, some to glory, others to damnation. You might as well said, God is free to anything, free to create people He knows will be damned if that's what He wants to do as if He is a petty tyrant. You forgot that God is Love. If I'm still reading you wrong, elucidate please.I implied nothing. I simply directed you to Romans 9-11. You can draw you own conclusions.
Doesn't Paul say Jacob I loved, Esau I hated? Also found in Mal 1:2-3.You certainly were implying that God as Potter could fashion vessels, some to glory, others to damnation. You might as well said, God is free to anything, free to create people He knows will be damned if that's what He wants to do as if He is a petty tyrant. You forgot that God is Love. If I'm still reading you wrong, elucidate please.
As for Romans 9, I have no idea what you meant by citing it.