Does God know

[Giuliano]

Few, yet in His house is “many” mansions? Why are few called, chosen?
Why was He chosen?
Why did He pick up the cross?
Why does He say “he who doesn’t pick up his cross and follow me. Is not fit to be my disciple.”?
What does it mean to be “predestined to be conformed” to the image of his Son?

The elect are not born perfect. Part of God's plan for them even before they are born is to "justify" them in their earthly lives -- making things that are wrong right -- so they are conformed to the image and likeness of God. So I believe.

 

[Nancy]

I recently discovered that our names are already written in the Book of Life....and that it can be blotted out in the OT...from the foundation of creation....but the NT changes it to The Lamb's Book of Life. So now I have to study this in depth. Because it has a lot of implications that can be misunderstood if not rightly divided by truth.

Here is a good, short article on the two books:
Is there a difference between ‘the book of life’ and ‘the Lamb’s book of life’? | Answers From The Book

 

[Giuliano]

Doesn't Paul say Jacob I loved, Esau I hated? Also found in Mal 1:2-3

Yes, it does, and rightly so. Hate in Hebrew implies an animosity. It also shows avoidance on the part of God. If someone does not want to close to God, God does not want to be close to him. How God relates to us depends on how we choose to relate to Him. It's our choice.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

For God to get through to Esau then, He had to work through Jacob. The elect are on the earth to get the non-elect to choose to love God. They were not sent to suffer and die needlessly. There is a point to their suffering. The elect are like Jesus in that way, willing to suffer if it means others can be attracted to God. We are told of the pain and suffering of the elect:

Hebrews 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy; )they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

This was not because God enjoys seeing His saints abused in this world. God is not sadistic. God took no pleasure in their suffering; but it was worth it. The world might not have been worthy of them; but they helped make a little more worthy through their witness for God. They endured temporary suffering but were leading others into a relationship with God and towards eternal life.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It was a problem then when Israel thought they were special in a way that meant God loved them and not the Gentiles. They forgot that God intended for all the nations to be blessed through them. They were tempted to feel superior and look down at Gentiles. God then chastised them.

Thank you for sharing. Makes me consider a verse from this morning: James 1:20-22 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. [21] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. [22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

“superfluity of naughtiness”...superfluity...looked the word up and still not sure what it means. Do you know?

The passages from the Torah about Esau are about Love; and when I see God has a plan for all mankind, it makes me love Him more, so I feel confident I got it right.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

“I see God has a plan for all mankind, it makes me love Him more,” ...same here. I’d even go as far as to say it is the glory that will be revealed...that God suffered vessels fitted for destruction to make known His mercy: light shining into the darkness and lighting it up.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Here is a good, short article on the two books:
Is there a difference between ‘the book of life’ and ‘the Lamb’s book of life’? | Answers From The Book

I did read this and it explains it very well. Thanks Nancy!

 

[Nancy]

I did read this and it explains it very well. Thanks Nancy!

You are welcome, and thank you for giving me something else to ponder

 

[Giuliano]

Thank you for sharing. Makes me consider a verse from this morning: James 1:20-22 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. [21] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. [22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

“superfluity of naughtiness”...superfluity...looked the word up and still not sure what it means. Do you know?

Extra, unnecessary is what it means to me. Other translations are clearer, using "abundance of wickedness" and so on.

I like the phrase "engrafted word" since it tells me reading words on a page isn't enough. It must be written on the heart, implanted or engrafted.

“I see God has a plan for all mankind, it makes me love Him more,” ...same here. I’d even go as far as to say it is the glory that will be revealed...that God suffered vessels fitted for destruction to make known His mercy: light shining into the darkness and lighting it up.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Oh, the faith of the saints who see their temporary suffering as not that much, compared to the great good they can do. They are like Jesus in that. The world may be a wicked place; but God still loved the world and all the people in it.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Whosoever means whosever to me. The elect are already on right terms with God; what about the others?

Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[Giuliano]

Here is a good, short article on the two books:
Is there a difference between ‘the book of life’ and ‘the Lamb’s book of life’? | Answers From The Book

The author seems to think they're two different books. I think they're the same. I think the original names in the Book of Life can be temporarily stricken out; but they will be added back in later. Paul clarified that for me by comparing Israel to a tree with Gentiles being added on. He says those of Israel can be chopped off but they can also be grafted back on. He then conclude by saying "all Israel" will be saved. The elect from the foundation of the world will all be added back to the Book of Life sooner or later if temporarily blotted out.

The world is a treacherous place. Even the original elect can get lost at times; but God will not permit any of them to be lost since they agreed to help try to save the world.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I think of it as being like doctors and nurses who go to a plague ridden place and catch the illness themselves. God's elect can get sick by being in the world; but He will not permit them to remain sick forever.

 

[Nondenom40]

Yes, it does, and rightly so. Hate in Hebrew implies an animosity. It also shows avoidance on the part of God. If someone does not want to close to God, God does not want to be close to him. How God relates to us depends on how we choose to relate to Him. It's our choice.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

For God to get through to Esau then, He had to work through Jacob. The elect are on the earth to get the non-elect to choose to love God. They were not sent to suffer and die needlessly. There is a point to their suffering. The elect are like Jesus in that way, willing to suffer if it means others can be attracted to God. We are told of the pain and suffering of the elect:

Its apparent you still haven't read Romans 9 because none of what youre saying applies here.

Rom 9:11-13
11 for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
NASB

If neither had even been born, before they had done anything good or bad...Read the rest. It has nothing to do with choosing God or 'avoidance', but 'Gods purpose according to His choice..'

 

[farouk]

As a side comment, some believe in a multiverse where each decision has its alternative choice. The problem with this model is there is no free will just infinite realities with their outcomes. If these outcomes end up in a similar conclusion, what would be the point of create multiverse alternatives. A multiverse removes free will because there are all possible outcomes and no choice is real.

I suspect multiverse propositions like saying there is no God is actually about abdicating responsibility in the heart and letting sin and hurt dictate ones direction, rather than repentance and forgiveness providing resolution and bringing life to peoples lives.

Nietzsche built a model of existence that removed significance and meaning out of relationships, which is so destructive he went nuts in the end. And this is my experience of all who walk this path. Our hearts shout significance and care for others, we need to live realising we are social and embedded in our communities and need to keep a loving caring perspective to stay alive, which is exactly what Jesus represents in the gospel.

Even beyond the social, above we need to keep 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2).

 

[Giuliano]

Its apparent you still haven't read Romans 9 because none of what youre saying applies here.

If neither had even been born, before they had done anything good or bad...Read the rest. It has nothing to do with choosing God or 'avoidance', but 'Gods purpose according to His choice..'

I already explained that and accept it as true; and I showed how God blessed Esau and protected him. If you read my comments, you ignored them.

I do not base my beliefs on a few passages from the Bible and draw too many conclusions from them alone. God's style of justice and love are explained by other passages.

I do not base what I believe too much on Paul alone since he's hard to understand. I have to consider what other passages say since it is possible to misinterpret Paul.

2 Peter 3:5 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The elect are not born perfect. Part of God's plan for them even before they are born is to "justify" them in their earthly lives -- making things that are wrong right -- so they are conformed to the image and likeness of God. So I believe.

To me...and I’ve thought about it a lot...He took up the cross and went to His death for others. He had life...it was us who needed life. When He said whoever doesn’t do the same cannot be His disciple ...it seems there is much to being chosen.

Luke 23:34-35 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [35] And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Mark 8:34-35 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [35] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

...to be conformed into the image of the Son. no...I don’t think you misunderstand His love; which is possibly way deeper than we know.

 

[Giuliano]

To me...and I’ve thought about it a lot...He took up the cross and went to His death for others. He had life...it was us who needed life. When He said whoever doesn’t do the same cannot be His disciple ...it seems there is much to being chosen.

John 15 comes to mind.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Surely the path of love is the only safe path for a Christian. If we do not, we risk being cast forth. It's also miserable if we lose our way.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

We see the elect or chosen ones are expected to bear fruit, not relax and think salvation is certain since we believe we're among the chosen ones. The promise is if we do this, we will be Jesus' friends. We shall be like him. . . .

 

[ScottA]

Do you all think God knows who will chose Him and who will not?

I say no ,welcoming thoughts.Will elaborate more after a few responses

Well...God is all-knowing, so yes.

But to elaborate: God is "the same yesterday, today, and forever"...meaning when and if He ever knows anything, He always did. Which brings us to the point of confusion. Man sees yesterday, today, and waits to see tomorrow. But when He is born of God, he begins to experience all things as God experiences things, which is timelessly: "old things have passed away and all things have become new." Thus, referring to your original question, at that point when one is chosen or born of the spirit of God, he enters into the "I am" timeless state of everything being "the same yesterday, today, and forever." Which no longer is considered in that same way, for time and history are "created" and have a beginning and an end, but God does not; and therefore, when one becomes one with God, he is no longer created, but "begotten." And, yet, because there is only One who is begotten, the only means by which any of this is possible, is for one to be "in Christ."

 

[ScottA]

So you think He would create someone knowing that they would be condemned to hell?

That is not an accurate depiction of what we are talking about.

God has been very clear from the beginning that mankind was "created" and is a mere "image" in the eyes of God. In terms that we can relate to, that would be like one of us making some sketches or taking some photographs, and then throwing some in the trash or deleting some...not really the "hell" that we imagine. It's not exactly murder. But from our perspective, yes, that may be a sort of cartoon "hell", as if Donald duck is chosen but Daffy is to be discarded. And yet, from God's greater perspective...even the blood of Christ then, would only be like ink, and history like so many tablets of paper, so many pixels or mega bites.

The good news then is, like Pinocchio, Christ becomes a real boy...and we can too.

 

[ScottA]

What's the purpose of this life if He already knows,that IMO would be a cruel God and that I know my Father is not...

That perspective comes from misunderstanding what it is this world actually is.

It is not the chronological historic universe that it would appear to be--it is a mere "creation" or "image"--not of what will be, but rather of what was before the foundation (creation) of the world (image), and yet what we are just now experiencing. God is reading our [living] will, which is also His judgement. He is reading what is [already] written.

So, to answer your question: The purpose of this life, is to have us live out our own will and judgement at our own hand. What we do, we do to ourselves. Or should I say...we [did] to ourselves (before the foundation of the world), and this is rather the presentation of evidence (made manifest).

 

[Heart2Soul]

That perspective comes from misunderstanding what it is this world actually is.

It is not the chronological historic universe that it would appear to be--it is a mere "creation" or "imagine"--not of what will be, but rather of what was before the foundation (creation) of the world (image), and yet what we are just now experiencing. God is reading our [living] will, which is also His judgement. He is reading what is [already] written.

So, to answer your question: The purpose of this life, is to have us live out our own will and judgement at our own hand. What we do, we do to ourselves. Or should I say...we [did] to ourselves (before the foundation of the world), and this is rather the presentation of evidence (made manifest).

I think the very definition of God allowing us to have free will is demonstrated in His Omniscience....knowing our whole life from beginning to end....yet He does not forcibly make us change what we have chosen to believe.
Can you imagine knowing the fate of a loved one....(seeing their future).. but not allowed to intervene and make them choose a different path?
The Bible says God grieves over those who lost.

 

[marksman]

So you think He would create someone knowing that they would be condemned to hell?

Yes, but he is not responsible for their choices because he has given every one of us a free will.

 

[marksman]

I think the very definition of God allowing us to have free will is demonstrated in His Omniscience....knowing our whole life from beginning to end....yet He does not forcibly make us change what we have chosen to believe.
Can you imagine knowing the fate of a loved one....(seeing their future).. but not allowed to intervene and make them choose a different path?
The Bible says God grieves over those who lost.

And the word says that he not willing that any should perish, so that means everyone has the opportunity to not perish but if we do we have made a choice to refuse his salvation.

 

[ScottA]

I think the very definition of God allowing us to have free will is demonstrated in His Omniscience....knowing our whole life from beginning to end....yet He does not forcibly make us change what we have chosen to believe.
Can you imagine knowing the fate of a loved one....(seeing their future).. but not allowed to intervene and make them choose a different path?
The Bible says God grieves over those who lost.

Indeed, this time is a gift. Not that it is the time we perceive it to be, for it was before the foundation of the world in the twinkling of an eye, finished; and yet broken down in our experience like light through a prism, that we can even change in the midst by our own will...as if it were not already written. God is greatly good and merciful. Amen!