1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Does God know

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by n2thelight, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,359
    Likes Received:
    2,796
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    They were never of God. Due to the fall of Adam and Eve another seed line was introduced. So you have those of God and those of the devil.

    (John 3:3) "...Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom...." These are those of God. Just like Christ is from above. (John 8:23) "...Ye are from beneath; I am from above...."

    Thus you have this constant contrast. (John 8:39-42) "...If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham....Ye do the deeds of your father...If God were your Father, ye would love me:...Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...."

    (John 8:47) "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

    (John 10:26) "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep...."

    Note that these verses don't say if you believed you would be my sheep or of God. They say you don't hear, or you believe not, because you are not of God.

    This is given for us to know that it is so. It is not given for us to determine who is of God and who is not. But God does know who are His and who are not. And Christ died for all, making the invitation valid. So we give the gospel to all. But only those of God will respond to it.

    You have this perfectly described in (John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father, which hath sent me draw him:...." And (John 6:37), "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

    Only those that the Father brings will come. But any who come, will be received. God's will/man's will.

    Stranger
     
  2. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,975
    Likes Received:
    316
    What about the fall of satan?When was that?

    Had satan not rebelled we would never had been made flesh
     
  3. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,359
    Likes Received:
    2,796
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    @n2thelight

    satan fell sometime after the original creation and before the fall of man.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  4. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,359
    Likes Received:
    2,796
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Why?

    Stranger
     
  5. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,975
    Likes Received:
    316
    Because he(satan)led a coup 1/3 of God's children followed him,so God had a choice kill satan right then and there along with those 1/3 or destroy the age with everyone being born of woman with no recollection of that time.

    Peter can explain it better

    II Peter 3:4 "And saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? for since the father fell asleep, all thing continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."


    II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

    Most Christians today, and all of the worldly people today are willingly placing their selves in ignorance on this matter of the creation. Old as it is spoken of here is very ancient, goes far back before the time of Noah and Adam, and even before the creation of the animal world and the earth age as we know it now. Peter is telling you that in the far past, there was a first earth age. Not a different world or planet, but the same planet [earth] existing in a time frame prior to as the earth exist today. The same world, but a different world age or time frame.

    II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

    That world age or cosmos that existed in that ancient time of the past, and everything that was a part of it was destroyed completely. All life on it was completely done away with. God destroyed it completely and it happened at Satan's overthrow. Many people believe that this flood was the flood of Noah's day, however, the flood of Noah's day did not destroy this world age, life from before that flood carried right over into the dispensation that followed one year later, after the waters had subsided.

    Even in the first two verses of Genesis, God declared that there was a first earth age. Lets go there and study what the Word actually says there.

    Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

    There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply states a fact, and left the time factor out. This verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and who the creation took place. In Proverbs 8:22we read of wisdom speaking through Solomon. Wisdom is God, for all wisdom is of God. "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His ways, before the works of old." What works of old could this be? It is the old earth age, spoken of in Revelation 12.

    Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

    Who is the Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters. In the Hebrew text the translation of the word, "was" as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; we see in the Massorah test it reads "(to become) without form...". The earth was not created a ruin but it became a ruin after the fall of Satan. It is the translators that changed the word from became, to was when they put it into English. This is the same thing that happened in Genesis 2:7 "...and man became a living soul."

    The correct translation of the Hebrew from the Massoretic text for these words, "...without form..." is "tohu-va-bohu". So we see that the earth was not created "without form", but it became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Hayah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass."

    Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the pure meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime root word for the meaning of the word "void". "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail." This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which is "to ruin".

    "Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction has come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. This is one of the problems in translating Hebrew into English, the verb "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

    At the end of the first earth age of Genesis 1:1 that age ceased to exist in its precious form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between the first two verses of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of inJeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude, as well as in II Peter. We will look into these Scriptures and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.

    If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what he was and did in that first earth age. It was what Esau's soul did in that age, that angered God so; and that anger passed on to the embryo of Esau when his soul entered into this earth age. This is also recorded in Romans 9:13.
     
  6. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,684
    Likes Received:
    1,060
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    They knew God before they were born. The Bible doesn't say much about that; but Deuteronomy says that there were people in human bodies taking the vow at Sinai, and there were also some who were "not standing" there who took it.

    Deuteronomy 29:10 Ye stand this day all of you before the Lord your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
    11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
    12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God, and into his oath, which the Lord thy God maketh with thee this day:
    13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
    14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
    15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the Lord our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:


    Gentiles who had not been elect became grafted onto Israel and became part of Israel that day as we can tell from "the stranger." We can also see that people not in physical bodies also made covenant with God that day.

    God always has His elect ones. He doesn't send them into the world unless it's going to do some good. They are not of this world, even though they are in the world. Jesus' disciples weren't of this world. They were elect and Jesus could identify them. He said, "Come," and they heard the call. They could do good in this world, so Jesus wanted them to stay in in it.

    John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
    16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


    Sometimes there aren't enough prayers asking God to send His elect ones into the world.

    Matthew 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

    An important role women have is to ask God that they may have holy children the way women in the Old Testament did. If an elect person is going to be born, he usually needs to be born in the right place at the right time, and with the right kind of parents. In the Old Testament, some got born the way Cyrus did as a Gentile so he could help the exiled Israelites return. We can see it in Pharaoh's daughter who was at the right place at the right time to rescue Moses. The Jews say she had stopped being a pagan and left Egypt with Israel.

    The elect are working to help others who are not elect. Jesus' mission was more to Israel than to the Gentiles. He was to wake up the elect and get them on the right path so they would go out into the world so the whole world might hear the Gospel. Does that make sense?
     
  7. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,684
    Likes Received:
    1,060
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    "Became" is absolutely right. What is not discussed much is what happened prior to this. There was a spiritual hierarchy that fell; and there was a human race that also fell. Eden was established to replace the fallen spiritual hierarchy; and to make it possible for humans to be more than mere dirt that the fallen "gods" played with.

    Esau or Edom was still under the prior spiritual hierarchy. We may think a war in Heaven had settled everything; but it had not. The fallen spiritual hierarchy was still exercising authority over most people; and it held sway over Esau or Edom. That is why he born first. He had the spiritual birthright. What Jacob did was trick Esau out of it so Jacob could invoke the benevolent and unfallen angels of God. The old spiritual hierarchy was "supplanted." Ha, Esau agreed to it!

    Believe it or not, even most of the "fallen gods" will someday repent. When they do that, the angelic forces sent to earth to replace them will have achieved their purpose; and the "fallen gods," no longer wanting to be worshiped as God Himself, will take their proper places as Guardian Angels of the nations.

    Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.
     
  8. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,359
    Likes Received:
    2,796
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Angels are not children of God. Man was not created when satan fell.

    I recognize the original creation in (Gen. 1:1) and the recreation in the creative acts of the 6 days, and the gap in between.

    Esau, however, existed after the 6 day recreation.

    Nothing you provided though answers why to your statement that man was made flesh because satan rebelled.

    Stranger
     
  9. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Free will to do what? You not being specific.
     
  10. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,975
    Likes Received:
    316
    Sons of God in the below

    Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

    God is asking, what holds this earth exactly where it is, do you know Job? do you know Elihu? Stop and think for a moment of all the laws of God, those dealing with gravity, with magnetism, with heat and pressures and all the other things that go to make up the atmosphere of the earth that we live on, and rely on for our life, as we live here in these flesh bodies. This sets our Heavenly Father in a class all by Himself. Man is nothing compared to the Creator.

    Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

    Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy? We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh. All souls were there and Satan also was there with all of them. Some how the people of this earth age are trying to forget Satan and the role that he played at the rebellion in that first earth age. We see that Satan was not in the conversation with Job and his friends at this time. They all have overlooked the overall plan of God. However had Job known the plan of God, where would he have been then, when the foundations of this earth were laid and the angels were rejoicing? Of course He would have been there with the rest of them, where we all were. You see, we the elect of God were chosen before the foundations of this earth were laid, and so was Job.

    All were created at the same time ,that's how He knew Esau ,before he was even in the mother's womb,and He(God)hated him,why?
     
  11. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,975
    Likes Received:
    316
    Paul was persecuting Christians,why did God intervene in his life on that road?

    Paul didn't have free will,he was chosen!!!
     
  12. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,975
    Likes Received:
    316
    Their was no human race,we were angelic beings meaning not of flesh and there was and Eden at that time as well

    Ezekiel 28:13 "Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the Sardis, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

    Do you remember the serpent in the Garden of Eden; and the "tree of good and evil"? Those were two of the names given to Satan, and they are also recorded in Revelation 12:9. Also don't overlook the term, "in the day that thou wast created." This points to the fact that Satan is not an eternal being, with infinite powers; thus there is no possibility of this creature ever becoming God, or having been one. However he is "full of wisdom, of a man."

    Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

    Now we know this one in Eden has to be Satan, and not Adam, for a cherub has never lived in the body of a man. Back in the thirteenth verse there are ten precious stones mentioned , and each of these stones are on the breastplate of the of the high priest. Before Satan's fall, he sat in an extremely high position, of responsibility.

    Satan was anointed by God to fill that high position. It was not an accident of God that Satan sat in that position, for Satan was created and anointed for that position; and he failed.

    The position of the "cherub" is to protect the mercy seat of God. "Coverth" means to guard, in the Hebrew text. God is saying that "I set you there on mine own altar, and you walked before me." It is because of Satan's vanity that he turned against God, and this caused Satan's sentence of death. It was because of this sentence that God also allowed for His own Son to die, to pay the price of all sin, so those who fall from God's grace, can return to His.

    Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
     
  13. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,359
    Likes Received:
    2,796
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    'Sons of God' in the Old Testament spoke to direct creation of God. Not 'children of God'. Angels are not children of God.

    You still didn't answer the question. You said man was made flesh because satan rebelled. I asked 'why'?

    Stranger
     
  14. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,975
    Likes Received:
    316
    So you are not a son of God?

    As for our being made flesh,will admit I can't give you a scripture for that....
     
  15. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,684
    Likes Received:
    1,060
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    History and archaeology suggest some sort of human-like race existed a very long time ago. When God made Adam, He went to the four corners of the earth to get dust. Why? So Adam would be compatible -- of one blood.

    Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;


    There is a reference to the covering cherub; and Ezekiel mocking the Prince of Tyre who had set up a temple with various things and pretended to be the covering cherub. He had people worshiping him. We differ on so many things, I'm not sure how productive our conversation will be.

    The serpent was meant to be there as was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They were part of the whole which God pronounced "very good." Revelation is not referring to the fall of Satan in Genesis. John says what he's writing is in the future.

    Again, Ezekiel is mocking the Prince of Tyre.

    Angels are "made" not "created."
    How could he be the Prince of Tyre then?

    Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

    9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
    10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.


    The prophecy came true. That Prince or King was killed when Tyre was invaded.

    Let me look up the passages about angels.

    Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

    It can be compared to taking a small piece of fire from a huge fire. Angels emanate or emerge.

    I don't know that vanity caused the problem. You seem to have some problems to work out. Did Satan have free will? You seem to lean to thinking Paul and others do not but then that Satan did.

    Why did God permit the serpent in the Garden? We need a satisfactory answer that does not impute evil to or the lack of love in God. And why was there that tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Why are there two apparently contradictory statements in Genesis?

    Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
    . . . .
    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


    Why say they could eat of every tree and then say not to eat of that particular one?[/quote]
     
  16. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,400
    Likes Received:
    827
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    appointed to die onmce means our physical death for judgement then follows and after that if apropriate is the punishment.
     
  17. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,684
    Likes Received:
    1,060
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    How does verse 28 fit in with verse 27?
     
  18. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,975
    Likes Received:
    316
    [/QUOTE]

    Nothing else I can say to you so I'll just let it go,will just say there's a reason some can't see.Guess one day I'll do a topic on that ,anyway it's all good....
     
    Giuliano likes this.
  19. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,359
    Likes Received:
    2,796
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes, believers in Christ are sons of God due to the regeneration of the Spirit. But, even there, we are children first, and then grow and mature and then receive the 'adoption of sons', which speaks to a mature believer. (Gal. 3:26-4:3)

    Stranger
     
Loading...