When, where, or how was free will taken away?
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I asked you twice and here were your responses:
First response ...
Second response to the question ...
Does it sound from your responses that you reached the conclusion that people do not want to die, or does it sound like you want to argue about Calvinism?
I'm not sure what his final point will be; but I believe if we love enough, we give up some of our free will because our fate in intertwined with others. Love is a sacrifice of a part of self. Thus the husband who loves his wife does not feel free to commit adultery since he could not bear to cause her pain.
That is fine too. Every step forward spiritually means another piece of self is given up; and one feels less free to choose the wrong. It would be stupid to do that anyway. Free will is no longer seen as such a desirable thing.
How can anyone obey the commandment to be perfect? If he uses his free will to decide he'll try to do that, that means he's not free in a lot of other ways. In theory, he's still free; but in practice, he's not.
Is God free to lie? In theory, He has the power or ability to lie; but His Justice and Love would not permit it.
Jesus chose us from the beginning of time. He wanted to emphasise everything we see and do is because of Him walking in our lives. What Jesus did not say was that he had chosen all, yet only a few listen and respond.
Paul described Jesus is the saviour of all, that He died for the sin of the whole world, that the door is open to all who respond.
Equally there is a sense unless God allows this response or provides it we are lost.
Paul argues all are guilty of sin and abandoning God because of Gods nature declared in creation.
Paul also argues that grace was shown to him because of ignorance and unbelief
13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
1 Tim 1
Guilt for sin, and the possibility of salvation rests on the ability of man to choose. Without choice love becomes a programmed response, following good or evil something one is destined to do. But rather scripture says this about maturity
14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Heb 5
Training to distinguish good from evil is meaningless unless free will is involved with meaningful choice along the way.
I think the true denial of free will is the denial of Jesus and the walk, the problem of growth and development in discipleship and the struggles of the heart with passions of the flesh and putting everything into context in holiness and love before the Lord.
Paul knew this struggle, yet he declares we press on towards the goal, never looking back. God bless you
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
He described himself as the Vine and his chosen disciples as branches. They were to bear fruit. The "chosen" ones were also told they could be "purged" and "burned" if they did not abide in him.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
He said he had chosen his disciples.
He described himself as the Vine and his chosen disciples as branches. They were to bear fruit. The "chosen" ones were also told they could be "purged" and "burned" if they did not abide in him.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
VictoryinJesus
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Sorry. I didn’t mean you should read minds...only that I wasn't sure myself what you were asking as I can not read your mind. You clarified here. Thank you. That is not what I read there...not saying anyone has to agree. But the whole topic in those passage in Romans 8 is: emptiness and Hope and the Sons of God Born from above.
“Was made subject to vanity.—“Vanity” = “emptiness” or “nothingness.” Creation is fulfilling an unworthy instead of a worthy and noble end. (Comp. Genesis 3:17-18.) It was made subject to this “not willingly,” i.e., by its own act or with its own concurrence, but “by reason of Him who hath subjected the same,” i.e., in pursuance of the sovereign purpose and counsel of God. The one thing which takes out the sting from this impoverished and degraded condition is Hope.”
Mankind cannot not be removed from “the creation” was subjected to vanity, not willingly...do you know of “emptiness”. Are you or have you been subjected to emptiness? It is shocking that not only the ground but also mankind was subjected to “emptiness” can be disputed. I guess anything is disputable. For me Romans 8:20 described with perfection the “emptiness” and vain pursuit of mankind to find something OR someone to fill that “emptiness.” This emptiness ...Ecclesiastes speaks of this “emptiness” well as does the Psalms ...the whole Word speaks of this “emptiness” man was subjected to unwillingly. Yes, the earth and world fully reflects this great “emptiness” “void” where mankind fully reveals openly mankind’s state without God ...which is cursed. Void. Empty. Unprofitable. We can not take man out of Romans 8:20 ...just because we do not like the taste of “not willingly”...did Adam and Eve ask for that tree to be there in the Garden. Who planted it? Who created it? In Job God says ...look, see my servant Job to satan ...do you think God did not know the serpent was speaking to Eve? We could get in a debate over it but ...you live in the World ...IS man subjected to “emptiness” and the bondage of death “not willingly”? From my own experience with “emptiness” and the bondage of corruption and death...there was no escape from the moment I was born out of wedlock of my natural mother...never having a true Father...I was indeed “empty.” “Void” Not willingly. no matter what vice I went to, no matter what I tried to use to FILL that emptiness...I was still void and dead inside...wasted. But there is Hope also in that verse. He said: blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall be FILLED. The original language there in Romans 8:20 has futility rather than vanity...coming to the knowledge of nothing. Futile. Pointless. A servant to death. All were “shut up” in this futile state of death and waste...emptiness...of nothingness ...until there was Hope revealed in Christ. God said: one must be born again from above. And God fills the emptiness.
In this regard consider the position of Jesus:
1. Yes, Jesus was free to lay his life down.
"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:18
2. No, he did not want to lay his life down.
"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me..." Matt 26:39
But then add no. 3:
3. In spite of what he wanted in his flesh, he wanted even MORE to be in his Father's will:
"...nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39
Jesus had free will and are we not to be like Him? Jesus chose to give up his free will in favor of his Father's and so must we do in order to be like Him. This is NOT a one time surrender but will be necessary every time a decision must be made to serve God or mammon. Fortunately, the Holy Spirit is available to help us... if we do not repeatedly quench the Holy Spirit in us in preference to our own corrupted spirit.
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I see free will as the simple choice between my own way and God's Way. To really be saved so as to be always with God, a person must finally and completely give the reins of choice to God. No one normally does this all at once, unless it is at the very end of physical life as with the 'good' thief on the cross. The choices are in our hands while we have time left. True Repentance would give the reins to God, but when one decision is made correctly there will be another decision to be made. Again a Life or death decision to make is back in our hands and surrender must be repeated. Can a person every fully repent and stand by it until the end of his course?
Man alone in too many cases would not make the right decision because he cares too much for his own physical life, but then we are to ask and receive [Matt 7:7].
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The issue is not whether free will is desirable or not, but whether in fact it is A FACT of life -- for both the saved and the unsaved.
1. The FACT that God expects a free response to the Gospel means that free will exists. Obedience to the Gospel and obedience to God's commandments are expected because free will exists.
2. The FACT that Christians must choose between God and self constantly and daily means that free will exists.
3. The FACT that God compels no one to be saved, but invites everyone to be saved means that free will exists.
One of the best illustrations in Scripture about the FACTUAL existence of free will is the Parable of the Wedding Feast.
MATTHEW 22
1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. [FREE WILL]
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:[FREE WILL]
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. [FREE WILL]
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. [FREE WILL]
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: [FREE WILL]
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen*.
*Note: Those who are chosen (the elect) are the ones who have freely obeyed the Gospel, and are therefore given the robe of righteousness (the wedding garment), and may therefore be legitimately at the Marriage of the Lamb. Since ALL were invited to the Wedding Feast, there was also a wedding garment available for all. That is why the king justly asked "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?"
I agree with you, but what you're saying has nothing to do with the loss of free will.
If I give up a part of myself to make everyone dinner for THEIR good, even if I feel tired...it is still my free will choice to make that dinner. I could have decided NOT TO.
Free will just means having a choice between two choices...every choice will be affected in some way by an outside force...but a choice being AFFECTED is not the same as
compatible free will.
We usually choose according to our born again nature...
but what calvinists say is that GOD CHOOSES FOR US and makes us THINK it's our choice.
Do you lean toward calvinism?
We've all felt this emptiness you speak of,,,if we're human.
You're saying what I said but more beautifully.
I used to teach my catechism kids that there's an heart shaped hole in all of us and only God can fill it.
Yes,,,of course it's not willingly. We all suffer because Adam sinned...we all are affected by that sin; including nature.
But you go a step further, wondering who put the tree there in the first place...or WHY, if God is all-good and knows the future. Was what we go through worth His plan?
And the snake...how did evil get into God's world?
These are questions with no answer...so I'll just say that I can agree fully with how you've worded you post.
God will give us glory later...Romans 8:18
And EVEN creation is waiting to be released from the grip of sin.
And the world around us will take part in this glorious freedom... Romans 8:21
I think you understand the situation precisely.
No, and I struggle with the mentality of those who do. I ask myself if they have actively ever exercised free will themselves. There is a way of "operating on automatic" according to things people pre-program in their minds. People can become slaves of their own minds. Although they retain free will, they don't act as if they do and they don't believe they do. They might as well not have it.
Yes...in fact in theology free will means being able to make a moral choice that is not conditioned by outside forces.
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At first glance, this may look dull and unexciting; but God likes variety. Just look around. I think the real purpose of free will is to enable us to be able to relate to other people, each person being unique. How we do that can be up to us.
Yes, if people really love God the times of stumbling will decrease [John 3:30] as He grows/increases within us. God will help us to reach the end with Him so long as we don't quit. If we do finally quit, we really loved our carnal world of comforts more than we loved Him. Along the Way we may back slide as we see in the type of David in the OT, but David would never quit on God and neither should we. Like David, we take whatever chastisement is coming to us and move on toward Him. If like King Saul we make excuses for ourselves or put the blame on others, like him, we will be rejected by God.
I didn't respond in the other thread, but I loved the story about your wife and what she wears. Often what we want (or think we want) really isn't that important. It can be so easy to adapt to others; and the joy of pleasing them far exceeds the pleasure of doing something we may think we want. Stumbling will surely decrease if we can do that. If we say we love God, we have to love others -- and that means realizing often what we think we want isn't that important, not really. If we do stumble, it can always be used as a learning experience. "Take whatever chastisement" may be coming and then don't do it again.
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