When, where, or how was free will taken away?

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atpollard

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How totally dumb.

WHERE in THEOLOGY does it say that free will means we can fly?

Why don't you stick to scriptural and theological free will and quit debating
philosophical free will?

Scary isn't it?
I tried that.
You never want to reply by addressing the verses that I quoted, but just post opinions explaining that I am wrong.

Go back to my look as Genesis 1-4 where the people most capable of using their “free will” to do what God requires did not choose to do the right thing. They did the exact same thing that the people Ephesians 2 describes as “children of wrath” and “dead in sin” choose to do. Yet it is you that insist that all men can do what is contrary to our nature and do what scripture describes as the job of God ... to save those still dead in sin and to draw those foreknown to Christ and to predestine and choose and justify and glorify according to HIS good pleasure.

At this point, I am only responding to people that drag me back into this discussion. If you don’t want to hear from me, then stop quoting me.
 

atpollard

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YOU are not an animal--an animal lives by INSTINCT.

YOU are a human being, made in the likeness of God.
Your nature has many attributes that God's nature has.
Do you even know any of them?

Do you consider yourself to be like an animal?
Do you believe the lie of the serpent that you can be like God freely knowing both good and evil all on your own ability?
 

atpollard

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You should stop learning about Pelagianism and learn about the scriptures instead.

STOP following men,
and START following Jesus.
You mean like Romans 3 and Ephesians 2?
Where it states that NO PEOPLE CHOOSE GOD and ALL ARE CHILDREN OF WRATH, DEAD IN THEIR SINS, but GOD SAVES because GOD grants the FREE GIFT of FAITH, GRACE, SAVED all according to THE PLEASURE OF HIS WILL and NOT OF YOURSELF.

You mean I should believe those scriptures?
Good advice.
I do.

Soli Deo Gloria!
 

GodsGrace

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I tried that.
You never want to reply by addressing the verses that I quoted, but just post opinions explaining that I am wrong.

Go back to my look as Genesis 1-4 where the people most capable of using their “free will” to do what God requires did not choose to do the right thing. They did the exact same thing that the people Ephesians 2 describes as “children of wrath” and “dead in sin” choose to do. Yet it is you that insist that all men can do what is contrary to our nature and do what scripture describes as the job of God ... to save those still dead in sin and to draw those foreknown to Christ and to predestine and choose and justify and glorify according to HIS good pleasure.

At this point, I am only responding to people that drag me back into this discussion. If you don’t want to hear from me, then stop quoting me.
They used their libertarian free will to CHOOSE to not do the right thing.
OR
God is making them do the wrong thing....compatibilist free will.

God makes persons do the wrong thing?

WHAT is the use of that?

If HE makes us do the wrong thing...compatible free will...then are we held responsible for it?

Difficult to read something so silly as to why we don't fly and not respond to it.
 
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GodsGrace

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You mean like Romans 3 and Ephesians 2?
Where it states that NO PEOPLE CHOOSE GOD and ALL ARE CHILDREN OF WRATH, DEAD IN THEIR SINS, but GOD SAVES because GOD grants the FREE GIFT of FAITH, GRACE, SAVED all according to THE PLEASURE OF HIS WILL and NOT OF YOURSELF.

You mean I should believe those scriptures?
Good advice.
I do.

Soli Deo Gloria!
ALL PERSONS ARE BORN IN THE SIN NATURE...
When we're born we are (at the age of accountability)
children of wrath... no Christian denies this.

What we deny is that we have the free will to CHOOSE GOD...
And that we are not so depraved that we cannot.

Total depravity is based on the idea of gnosticism....
that ONLY those that have special knowledge can be saved...and not EVERYONE.

The N.T. teaches that ANYONE can be saved that WANTS to be saved.

The idea of total depravity did not permeate the church until the year 1,500 AD.
Again, was everyone dumb till then?
 

GodsGrace

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... And no man wants to be saved (unless God draws them - specifically).
Give me a scripture please.
I don't see this in the N.T.

God draws all men to Himself....
BEFORE the crucifixion in Romans 1:19-20
AFTER the crucifixion in John 12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

ALL MEN are drawn to God in one way or another...
ALLMEN have always known about a superior power/being...

NOT ALL MEN accept that being and they stay lost.
 

atpollard

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Well then,,,,
explain it please.
From the Puritan Board

Libertarian Freedom
There are some people who believe in what is called Libertarian free will (hereafter called LFW), which means that a person is always able to choose or choose otherwise in a given situation. Being able to choose or choose otherwise, they argue, is the only way to be responsible for your actions. If you couldn't have done otherwise, then you are not responsible for your actions. In this view, a person is absolutely free, even from the determination and constraints of the human nature or the determination of God.

Compatibilism
On the other hand, there are people who believe the Bible teaches what is called Compatibilistic Free will (CFW). This view asserts that man's actions and choices are done freely, but are also in accordance with God's determination and control over the entire situation. Since the man acted freely, he is held responsible for his actions, and yet God remains sovereign. Compatibilistic free will also asserts that the human will is not free from the constraints or the inclination of the human nature, but in fact is a slave to it. In other words, the will does not control itself, nor does the will control the nature, but the nature controls the will and therefore your nature determines your choices.

For example, if you offer a pit bull a bowl of salad or a big juicy steak, his nature is such that he will always predictably and consistently choose the steak over the salad. In this case, the Pit bull cannot really be said to have chosen or chosen otherwise. His choice was determined by his nature. It was not a free choice in this sense, but it was free because it's what the pit bull desired to choose. His choice was in perfect accord with his own nature and desires.

So the will is determined, but it is determined by who you are. This is self-determination. This, CFWillers argue, is the very essence of true freedom.

In like manner, CFWillers say that the Bible teaches that the human nature is wholly ruined and corrupted by sin. The human heart and will are in bondage to the corruption of sin, indeed, slaves to sin and satan himself, always doing his will, until the Lord graciously moves to rescue. The fallen, unregenerate man is completely hostile towards God, finding the gospel foolishness, hostile towards Christ, at enmity with God. He "hates the light and does not come to the light". If offered salvation, he will refuse it consistently because he lacks the spiritual faculties to humble himself before the God he hates so much and give up the sins he loves so much.

The problem is deep down, it is a heart problem. The man needs to be regenerated. He needs to be quickened from death to life, raptured from darkness to light. This, only God can do, and that by grace.

In other words, mankind by nature is not "neutral" towards God, and therefore able to choose either to the right or the left. Rather, mankind is completely opposed to God, and holiness, and does not desire Christ, only desiring to remain in the sins they love, therefore will always consistently and predictably choose to reject Christ and embrace sin.

If any man is ever saved by "choosing" to believe and embrace Christ and humble himself and repent of his sins, it isn't because he is smarter, or more spiritual, or somehow able to escape the constraints of his own evil nature because he is innately better than his neighbor, it is because the Sovereign Lord graciously moved to rescue that man, change his heart, and bring him to faith and repentance, which the Bible teaches are gifts from God.​
 

GodsGrace

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From the Puritan Board

Libertarian Freedom
There are some people who believe in what is called Libertarian free will (hereafter called LFW), which means that a person is always able to choose or choose otherwise in a given situation. Being able to choose or choose otherwise, they argue, is the only way to be responsible for your actions. If you couldn't have done otherwise, then you are not responsible for your actions. In this view, a person is absolutely free, even from the determination and constraints of the human nature or the determination of God.

Compatibilism
On the other hand, there are people who believe the Bible teaches what is called Compatibilistic Free will (CFW). This view asserts that man's actions and choices are done freely, but are also in accordance with God's determination and control over the entire situation. Since the man acted freely, he is held responsible for his actions, and yet God remains sovereign. Compatibilistic free will also asserts that the human will is not free from the constraints or the inclination of the human nature, but in fact is a slave to it. In other words, the will does not control itself, nor does the will control the nature, but the nature controls the will and therefore your nature determines your choices.​


The above says that man makes free will choices....
His actions and choices are done freely...

BUT, that these choices are made IN ACCORDANCE with God's DETERMINATION AND CONTROL over the entire situation.

If we choose what God determines....
how is that a free will choice?
There is no free will if God preDETERMINES our choice according to HIS CONTROL.



For example, if you offer a pit bull a bowl of salad or a big juicy steak, his nature is such that he will always predictably and consistently choose the steak over the salad. In this case, the Pit bull cannot really be said to have chosen or chosen otherwise. His choice was determined by his nature. It was not a free choice in this sense, but it was free because it's what the pit bull desired to choose. His choice was in perfect accord with his own nature and desires.

So the will is determined, but it is determined by who you are. This is self-determination. This, CFWillers argue, is the very essence of true freedom.
Your statement says that GOD determines our choice...
The pit bull example is not a good one.
The pit bull had a CHOICE. Hi might choose the steak, just like an unsaved person will choose to sin, but the pit bull still had a choice.

Free will means you have a choice between two options,,,and that you could have chosen either one.

In like manner, CFWillers say that the Bible teaches that the human nature is wholly ruined and corrupted by sin. The human heart and will are in bondage to the corruption of sin, indeed, slaves to sin and satan himself, always doing his will, until the Lord graciously moves to rescue. The fallen, unregenerate man is completely hostile towards God, finding the gospel foolishness, hostile towards Christ, at enmity with God. He "hates the light and does not come to the light". If offered salvation, he will refuse it consistently because he lacks the spiritual faculties to humble himself before the God he hates so much and give up the sins he loves so much.

The problem is deep down, it is a heart problem. The man needs to be regenerated. He needs to be quickened from death to life, raptured from darkness to light. This, only God can do, and that by grace.

In other words, mankind by nature is not "neutral" towards God, and therefore able to choose either to the right or the left. Rather, mankind is completely opposed to God, and holiness, and does not desire Christ, only desiring to remain in the sins they love, therefore will always consistently and predictably choose to reject Christ and embrace sin.

If any man is ever saved by "choosing" to believe and embrace Christ and humble himself and repent of his sins, it isn't because he is smarter, or more spiritual, or somehow able to escape the constraints of his own evil nature because he is innately better than his neighbor, it is because the Sovereign Lord graciously moved to rescue that man, change his heart, and bring him to faith and repentance, which the Bible teaches are gifts from God.

I don't believe those that accept God are any better than anyone else...
I think they're just more open to their spiritual life...believe that God made everything, and are more accepting of the desire to be on God's side and not on the side of the enemy.
 

atpollard

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Give me a scripture please.
I don't see this in the N.T.
Been there, done that ... you rejected the scriptures and countered with your opinions then threw other verses up to prove the word of God wrong rather than explaining the correct meaning.

No need to plow the same row twice.
 

atpollard

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There is no free will if God preDETERMINES our choice according to HIS CONTROL.
That is not what compatibilism says that God does. You should reread the entire article and see what Compatibilism really teaches. Then you can reject the true teaching rather than a strawman version of that teaching.

(Personally, I could not care less whether you believe in compatible free will or not since your opinions do not change the Word of God. I just thought you should know what compatibilism actually teaches.)
 

atpollard

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They used their libertarian free will to CHOOSE to not do the right thing.
OR
God is making them do the wrong thing....compatibilist free will.
They used their free will, which is a slave to their “human nature”, to CHOOSE to do the wrong thing and God did not STOP them. (That is compatibilist free will).

Saul attempted to use his free will to have more Christians killed, in accordance with his “natural” desires, but God did STOP him on the road to Damascus and changed his heart creating a new man with new desires reflected in a new name: Paul. (That is also compatibilist free will).
 

GodsGrace

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They used their free will, which is a slave to their “human nature”, to CHOOSE to do the wrong thing and God did not STOP them. (That is compatibilist free will).

Saul attempted to use his free will to have more Christians killed, in accordance with his “natural” desires, but God did STOP him on the road to Damascus and changed his heart creating a new man with new desires reflected in a new name: Paul. (That is also compatibilist free will).
God did intervene directly with Paul.
And others. But this is the exception...
and I don't see this happening on a regular basis.
If it did, it seems to me there would be no need for the bible..
God would just pick who He wanted to save.
 
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Giuliano

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John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Psalm 34:18 The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
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atpollard

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John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Where does that say that “People must still be willing” [to be saved or God cannot save them]?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Where does that say that “People must still be willing” [to be saved or God cannot save them]?

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Where does that say that “People must still be willing” [to be saved or God cannot save them]?

Psalm 34:18 The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Where does that say that “People must still be willing” [to be saved or God cannot save them]?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Where does that say that “People must still be willing” [to be saved or God cannot save them]?
 

atpollard

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God would just pick who He wanted to save.
Like this?
  • And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:28-30]
 

Enoch111

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Like this?
  • And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:28-30]
This passage actually REFUTES the loss of free will. When will you honestly admit that your false doctrine is false, and that you desire the truth? God desires truth in the inward parts, not the lies emanating from false gospels.

Romans 8 is NOT about God choosing some for salvation and others for damnation, but God choosing those who obeyed the Gospel for perfection and glorification. And obedience to the Gospel is A CHOICE.

But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16).

Could they all have obeyed the Gospel? Absolutely
Should they all have obeyed the Gospel? Absolutely
So why did all not obey they Gospel? Because they made a conscious decision.
 
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