Teresa of Avila and Watering the Garden

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marks

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Thank your for the response yet still disagree. Not saying anyone has to agree , or even that maybe you and epi don’t see something I don’t...only now in no way can I see IF it is indeed HIS righteousness submitted unto...God’s Righteousness...how “God’s righteousness” is a growth. I’m sorry...I just doesn’t see it. Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

“...unto the righteousness of God.” Who is Holy.

Maybe grow into His Righteousness...as be transformed by the renewing of the mind? Is this what you mean?

Hi ViJ,

Best as I can tell, what many of us believe God gives to us in Christ upon rebirth, episkopos seems to believe that God actually withholds from the regular Christian, though God has given to him, episkopos, of course, that which He actually promises to all.

That we're not actually In Christ, thus denying the power of the Gospel.

It's akin to telling the seeing man to close his eyes and become blind.

Much love!
 
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GodsGrace

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Patron Saints Who Were Able to Levitate, Bilocate and Bend the Laws of Nature

(Not that I follow this . . . I have some different ideas myself. This is not new to me.)
I didn't read your link because I have to leave...
But did you ever hear of Padre Pio? He's Saint Pio now.

There are MANY reports of his being in two places at one time.
My own Aunt told me an interesting story about an experience of hers.

I'm not sure about the levitation and am planning on asking a Catholic friar and priest about this --- he's very knowledgeable and spiritual.
 
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marks

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I didn't read your link because I have to leave...
But did you ever hear of Padre Pio? He's Saint Pio now.

There are MANY reports of his being in two places at one time.
My own Aunt told me an interesting story about an experience of hers.

I'm not sure about the levitation and am planning on asking a Catholic friar and priest about this --- he's very knowledgeable and spiritual.
I don't question "bilocation", levitation, I've witnessed a number of things myself, but I have different ideas about what's happening.

Much love!
 

Stan B

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If you've read the ECFs,
you cannot really be a protestant.
OR
you can be but you'd also love the early catholic church.

And I'd say the ECFs end with the PRE-Nicene fathers.

Would you agree?

GodsGrace, I have never defined myself as Protestant. I would define myself as 'Sola Scriptura', in harmony with Eusebius. While I enjoy reading about the beliefs of the Fathers, my beliefs are based SOLEY upon the canon of Scripture, the concept of "Sola Scriptura" embraced by Eusebius AD 325:

In his Second Book against Sabellius, he expressly declares that if a word is not found in Scripture, it is satisfactory to him: "As to not inquiring into truths which submit to investigation, it is indolent, so prying into others where scrutiny is expedient, is audacity. Into what truths should ought we then search? Those which we find recorded in Scriptures. But what we do not find recorded there, let us not search after. For had the knowledge of them been incumbent on us, the Holy Spirit would doubtless placed them there. . . Speak that which is written, and strife will be abandoned"

I do not agree that all N&PNF Fathers should be abandoned. Although The N&PNF Fathers Series one, contains mostly the boring philosophical writings of St. Augustine, N&PNF Fathers Series 2, contain the writings of two of my favourites, Eusebius, and Athanasius. While Eusebius provides us with a historical account of the church, Athanasius tends to focus more on presenting the structural beliefs of the church, including declaring once and for all, the official Canon of Scripture.

I am also fascinated by the writings of Jerome who provides us with interesting account of all the saints and leaders of the church to that date, and his conflicts and encounters with the Bishop of Rome.

GodsGrace >> "you can be but you'd also love the early catholic church."

Well, of course I love the early catholic church. By definition, 'catholic' merely referred to the to the universal body of Christ, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the ROMAN Catholic Church, which is a largely pagan cult which broke away from the catholic church in AD 1049. Their mission from the outset was identical Muslim ideology; Find Christians, and kill them wherever you find them. The ROMAN Catholic Church murdered millions of Christians, and a date that sticks in my mind, is 1832, the last person to be burned that the stake by Romanism!
 
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Nancy

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Are we supposed to call ourselves good and faithful servants? Or are we to say the opposite, and the Lord is the one who decides?

Teresa talked at length about her failures, and how awful they were because of the graces she had been given. Its why so many are endeared to the woman - for her honesty. She did not think highly of herself. In fact, the things she wrote were either requested of her by her superiors or were begged of her by her friends. She wouldn't have written them otherwise.

To pronounce that you have been a good and faithful servant is the complete opposite of humility and self understanding. It is the complete opposite of the work and effects of our Lord in a man's heart. In fact, it is the man who prayed thanks that he was not like those other sinners but was instead a good and faithful servant, who did not walk away justified. Man does not commend himself before God (or even before other men) if"

Indeed! "To pronounce that you have been a good and faithful servant..." IMHO is Gods alone to proclaim. Would we not rather become humble rather than have Him humble us? I choose the former. We humble ourselves and He will lift us up, "assurance" of salvation can become a very arrogant way of thinking. It's a RACE! And, it is not finished until He takes us home. Yes, He who began a good work...certainly comes into play here yet, we cannot drop out of the race or all will be lost. At one time, I was sold on that scripture and thought I was "in"...boy have I learned differently! Of course He will complete our salvation as we yield to Him in all things. Jmho.
I do not know much about Teresa of Avila. The levitation thing is a bit off putting to me as, I see no purpose for it, unless it is a self edification practice? Like those who speak in tongues privately? The "levitation" does give me that knee jerk reaction though, I must say. The only "levitation" that means a tall hill of beans to me is that of the risen Jesus Christ - As He rose within His burial cloths! (The Shroud - awesome vids out there) I cannot comment on Teresa of A., as I haven't read very much of/about her.
Her honesty, humility and scriptural agreement will be something for me to look into as as I read about her.
God bless your socks off sis :D







 
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stunnedbygrace

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I've read about everything I could find that she wrote. In my reading, I never saw her say she levitated. Lol.
 
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aspen

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“At the age of 28 Catherine was said to have received the stigmata, when five red rays shot out of the crucifix she was praying to and pierced her hands, feet, and heart. She refused to eat or drink, save for the Blessed Sacrament. Her miracles were not limited to the stigmata and visions: Catherine was seen levitating during prayer.......”
 

stunnedbygrace

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Thank your for the response yet still disagree. Not saying anyone has to agree , or even that maybe you and epi don’t see something I don’t...only now in no way can I see IF it is indeed HIS righteousness submitted unto...God’s Righteousness...how “God’s righteousness” is a growth. I’m sorry...I just doesn’t see it. Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

“...unto the righteousness of God.” Who is Holy.

Maybe grow into His Righteousness...as be transformed by the renewing of the mind? Is this what you mean?

Hmm...okay, so when Abraham believed God, God counted him righteous. Gods righteousness is by faith. Do you agree with this?

The apostle talked about the righteousness that is by faith. Not by works, but by faith. Do you agree, at least basically, that faith means trust?

Can you maybe consider that possibly, to submit to Gods righteousness means to submit to Gods way of making men right with Him - by trusting Him - rather than trying to get right with God by another way? And if not, can you define what "submitting to Gods righteousness" means to you?
 
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amadeus

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Luke 17:10 KJV
[10] So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.


Tecarta Bible
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

Nothing special or extraordinary... only reasonable!
 

GodsGrace

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I don't question "bilocation", levitation, I've witnessed a number of things myself, but I have different ideas about what's happening.

Much love!
You're not saying what your idea is...it's OK.

Edgar Casey, for instance, did not invoke the name of God.
I do believe that when God is called on...it is HE that is doing the work.

Jesus said a house divided cannot stand when He was accused of doing the devil's work.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Thank your for the response yet still disagree. Not saying anyone has to agree , or even that maybe you and epi don’t see something I don’t...only now in no way can I see IF it is indeed HIS righteousness submitted unto...God’s Righteousness...how “God’s righteousness” is a growth. I’m sorry...I just doesn’t see it. Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

“...unto the righteousness of God.” Who is Holy.

Maybe grow into His Righteousness...as be transformed by the renewing of the mind? Is this what you mean?

Once again, I believe you have a problem because you cannot separate righteousness and holiness. And believe me, I know the struggle in it. Even an unbeliever can do what is right sometimes by following their conscience in matters. In fact, sometimes an unbeliever can do what is right while a believer does what is wrong! And the unbeliever may have never read the bible, but he follows his conscience in a matter. I'm sure you have seen examples of this in your life.

Now if an unbeliever does what is right in a situation, and a believer does what is not right, should the believers response be: it doesn't matter if he did what was right and I did what was wrong. I am still going to heaven and he is still going to hell, because doing what is right or doing what is wrong doesn't matter to God? Set aside everything but this question for the moment.
 
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GodsGrace

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Once again, I believe you have a problem because you cannot separate righteousness and holiness. And believe me, I know the struggle in it. Even an unbeliever can do what is right sometimes by following their conscience in matters. In fact, sometimes an unbeliever can do what is right while a believer does what is wrong! And the unbeliever may have never read the bible, but he follows his conscience in a matter. I'm sure you have seen examples of this in your life.

Now if an unbeliever does what is right in a situation, and a believer does what is not right, should the believers response be: it doesn't matter if he did what was right and I did what was wrong. I am still going to heaven and he is still going to hell, because doing what is right or doing what is wrong doesn't matter to God? Set aside everything but this question for the moment.
What does righteousness mean?
What does holiness mean?
 

stunnedbygrace

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What does righteousness mean?
What does holiness mean?

To be righteous means to do what is right. Have you read the verse that says, make no mistake about this, a righteous man DOES what is right. The apostle took care with his words there in saying, do not make a mistake on this. So then, if a man does what is wrong, is he righteous?

(To be holy is to not sin. )
 

stunnedbygrace

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I may very well get over my head in this. I still struggle with it at times. But hopefully, Epi will step in if I do. He is very patient with us in this. :)
 

GodsGrace

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To be righteous means to do what is right. Have you read the verse that says, make no mistake about this, a righteous man DOES what is right. The apostle took care with his words there in saying, do not make a mistake on this. So then, if a man does what is wrong, is he righteous?

(To be holy is to not sin. )
Hey SBG,
You don't really know what either term means...

RIGHTEOUSNESS
means, quite simply, to be right with God.

HOLINESS
means, quite simply, to be set apart for God's work.

An unsaved person cannot do what is right...
Because he is not RIGHT WITH GOD.
He can do what is right in man's eyes....but that counts for little.
And a saved person can still do what is wrong, but be RIGHT WITH GOD.

A righteous man does what is right means that if one is led by the Holy Spirit, he will end to do what is right because He is in God's will...however, this will not always be true.
And an unsaved person can NEVER do what is right in God's eyes because he is lost and good deeds by the lost are only efficacious for MAN and NOT for GOD.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Once again, I believe you have a problem because you cannot separate righteousness and holiness.

Yeah I have a problem because they are both His. The Lord’s Name above any other: He is Righteousness and Holy. Separate what He already is: and what you have is man establishing his own righteousness...and Holy some place else.
 
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