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Featured Teresa of Avila and Watering the Garden

Discussion in 'Christian Spirituality Forum' started by Episkopos, Sep 6, 2019.

  1. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    How does that tie in to: make no mistake about it, a righteous man DOES what is right? Is a man who does what is not right, right with God? And if your answer is yes, why does the man repent when he does unrighteously?
     
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  2. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    The question is what is righteousness and Holy. God said to be perfect as He is perfect. Every “Holy” and “righteous” has reference to Love God and Love neighbour as you love yourself. But man wants to establish a different kind of righteous works of what they have deceived themselves into seeing as righteous ...or separate as epi and you seem to say from...Holy. For the Life of Me if they are both His ...no idea how they are separate. What is most concerning is where Christ said ...I was hungry and you gave me no meat.

    Time and time again the elevated attitude is ...you all do not deserve meat go eat somewhere else...away from us. It is elevation above the scum that can’t handle meat. I’m not buying it. Sorry. But the righteousness and Holiness of God is Matthew 5:44-48 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Which is not seen. ever. Even Paul 1 Corinthians 3:2-3 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. [3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
    Even he (Paul)yearned for their progressing and fed them as new babes in Christ til they could handle meat. This is not what is seen but an elevation ...when the Spirit (Righteousness and Holy)comes underneath that which is weak and LACKS...and lifts it up. ...Just look at the crucifix that He put upon His shoulders and took up to the top of that hill....for sinners. So the speech and actions don’t mix. Imo. So yeah I’m really struggling with being told His Righteousness and His Holiness are separate. Followed by elevation.
     
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  3. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    You can't take one verse out of the bible and make a doctrine or theory out of it.
    Theology teaches what I said.

    Do you ever sin?
    Do you become lost or are you still right with God?
    So, yes, the answer is yes.
    One could do what is wrong and still be right with God.

    The man who repents when he does unrighteously, does so because he is born again and loves God.

    The man who does wrong and is not right with God does not care.

    BTW, you also don't know the meaning of REPENT.
     
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  4. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    The impression I have given you is that I think you are scum and I am too holy to be around you...?? That's how I come across to you...? I am not holy. Only God is holy. I am led by the Spirit. But I often do unrighteously. I stumble a lot but I get back up and begin trusting Him again.

    It's a race of trust. So that's what I focus on. To show you how dull and gross and destitute I am, I met God and received His Spirit over 13 years ago, but it was not until 7 months ago that I believed and rested from my worry over temporal provision. I refused to trust Him in it. It was a monumental struggle for me. And I was always fretting over why I couldn't seem to hear what He was saying, but how could He tell me about heavenly things when I wouldn't believe what He had said about an earthly thing like temporal provision?
     
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  5. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Understand about struggle. All I’m saying is we should be for one another not against one another. Maybe I don’t believe or see the same as you or epi...but in either we can come underneath and support where there is lack. To be more than lip service or theology of what is righteousness and Holy by loving and edifying where there is lack. Romans 15:1-7 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. [2] Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. [3] For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. [4] For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. [5] Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: [6] That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. [7] Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
     
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  6. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    Correct. You must take all the counsel of God to have it correct and not lopsided. So...fit the verse in. Don't discard it. Work it into the puzzle.
     
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  7. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    I'm not against you. You are the only person I have seen in here who I believe is ready to bear and understand this.
     
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  8. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Would disagree. When I first came here ...it was by accident. But God seemed to be saying to stay and that He can take a small platform ...just a few and do mighty things. I’ve always seen His presence in each person here. We are weird bunch, each of us with our own quirks and maybe even flaws ...but I’ve grown to love the uniqueness of every person here. The disciples were all unique to each other and God used them despite their differences.
     
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  9. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Amen!
    Does God never use an unsaved person to bless one who is saved? When and if He does, that unsaved person has done something right even though it may not have saved himself. Later, as that unsaved person walks through difficulties, God may stir up his memory of that event causing him to reach out to God for himself and those he cares for...

    Same reply to this. There are people doing good things perhaps at times for the wrong reason while giving God no glory for it. This is their loss, but the things remain 'good'. Remember that Jesus said, "there is none good but one, God". Anytime anyone, saint or sinner, saved or unsaved, does something good in the eyes of God, it is God accomplishing that thing. God, the good One, does do good things through evil people.

    "And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said.
    Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also." Gen 12:31-32


    Pharaoh was pressed and hurting due to the loss of his own son when he said those words. Later he would change his mind and pursue the children of Israel, but regardless, what he did was according to God's will and was a "good" thing.
     
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  10. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry that you disagree and think I'm against you. There isn't much I can think to do about that.

    And all I can think to do or say about the rest is to say, think about it and ask God if it truly is as men say, that righteousness by faith, through faith, can end with those who do unrighteously condemning those who do righteously and whether there is such a thing as a holy man doing sin.

    Jesus always did what was right, so He was righteous. And He never sinned, so He was holy. The moment we make righteousness to be a compromised state or we make holiness to be a compromised state, we have nothing.

    A man must learn to make a distinction between righteousness and holiness. If he has done unrighteously, he needs to know he has Or he won't repent, and he needs to understand how high holiness is. Otherwise, he will raise righteousness higher than it should be, doing away with humility and fear of God, and will deface and lower holiness in order to fit it all to himself.
     
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  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    And yet, many will come in that day and say to Him, Hey! We did all these miracles in Your Name! And it will have been in His Name, but not by His Spirit.

    My idea is that there are powers in this world, not in humanity, but in spirit beings. God is of course all powerful. Yet He leaves much to run it's course.

    Part of the course of things is that deceiving signs and wonders will deceive, and many will be deceived.

    I strictly follow the Biblical narrative. I don't just mean the storyline, more the context of how to understand everything.

    Jesus ascended into heaven. No one else does that. Some were taken into heaven.

    I don't question some fellow flying around the sky, but I don't look at him and say, because he can fly around the sky, he must be godly. Personally, I've never seen anyone fly around the sky. But I don't question levitation, for instance. Commonly associated with demonic activity, and overcome in the Name of Jesus. Exprerienced by people of whom I believe their accounts.

    I've experienced other incidents of demonic activity. Between what I read in Scripture, and what I've experienced in this world, I'm really not looking at these sorts of things.

    Much love!
     
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  12. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    You don’t have to do anything. I know you are not against me. You haven’t offended me. I just want you to see that even if I disagree I’m not against you because I’m not in total agreement...but consider you a sister despite the disagreement.
     
  13. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    There is no puzzle for me.
    There are some that know how to take all the counsel of God without making it be lopsided.

    Of course, we protestants like to be little theologians, look down on scholars, and want to know everything all on our very own.
     
  14. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Very good explanation A.
    And I agree about what you said about unsaved persons doing good...
    I also believe those persons have a better chance of becoming saved since their heart is soft and kind. (if that's what they practice).
     
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  15. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    If the criteria is works, then the one who does good works - always and ever - 'goes to heaven' in your terminology.

    If the criteria is faith, then that's what makes the difference.


    This depends. Are you answering whether the man is righteous because of his behavior, works?

    Or are you asking whether the man is righteous because of what God has done to him and for him through the man's faith?

    Your questions are the age old works vs. faith. You declare someone unrighteous because you see unrighteousness in their works. This denies righteousness by faith, and therefore, the righteousness that you think comes through works is not the righteousness of God.

    Please also consider this.
     
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  16. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    If you are speaking of the regenerate, your answer is in the 2nd half of Romans 7.

    Much love!
     
  17. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    Well, I would say to want to know and understand on your own, rather than blindly accepting doctrines (even doctrines of hundreds of years ago), is wise. If it is coming from a man, or even a longstanding denomination, it's just wise to be a Berean. The stakes are very high in this, because we are to be wary of the leaven of men.
     
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  18. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    His righteousness being inconceivable...a strength unlike anything ever seen of man or man’s righteousness...a strength and righteousness man cannot touch or come near to approach except “in Christ”. ....the strength and righteousness of the Spirit of God in bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things..

    1 Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.

    God’s righteousness the only One able to bear having “the world” set upon its pillars of His body His church: the ground of truth. (The ground where the seed springs forth and multiples and flourishes)(the garden God waters and keeps)


    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    The righteousness of God unexplainable yet seen in bears all things ...the world set upon its pillars. Man’s righteousness will be crushed in it(man’s righteousness)can not and will not bear “the world”. Being ignorant of God ...they go about attempting to do what Only God has the strength to do and not be crushed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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  19. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Just so!

    :)
     
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  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Looking back over this . . .

    What we truly need to do is to understand Scripture on these things, and not base our conclusions on what experiences people have reported, which have No Authority - Even Peter!

    Peter Saw Jesus Transfigured. He saw the illuminated cloud. He heard the Father speak! And still the Holy Spirit wrote, by Peter's hand, that we have a more certain word of prophecy.

    Even with that experience Peter defers to the Written Scriptures.

    And the man whom Paul reported caught up to the "5th level", no, the 3rd heaven - we need Scriptural terminology - this is mentioned briefly, and only to say, "I'm not going to say anything about this about myself, now, I'll boast about another guy I know, but not me, not this way."

    So are we to be telling people, I've been caught up to heaven, caught up to level 3, however you want to call it?

    And then start forming doctrine derived from our own perceptions and opinions of our experiences?

    Or shall we do as the Apostles did, put all that on the back burner, and stick with the Written Word of God?

    I can speak of the miracles in my life, the walking in the Spirit without sin, and so what? Yes, I know God can lift a man up to walk without sin, or perhaps just the consciousness of sin, because, let's face it, if Paul was not a fit judge of himself, shall we say we are?

    This is what happens when we elevate Scripture over our experiences. We put ourselves in the position that our experiences just might become unimportant except to us.

    The fact of the matter is that when it was God's will to awaken my understanding, He did. And when it was God's will that the corruption of my flesh would be put away, that's what He did. And I learned what life is meant to be.

    And when it was His will that this abeyance of the flesh end, it did.

    And now I know that it is His will that I walk by faith, which is the true miracle. I know that the only impediment to this life is unbelief. Listening to people tell you, you aren't there yet. I have good news for you, sonshine!

    We are reborn into life.

    To live a life in a body of flesh, but to live that life according to what is written, and not what is experienced.

    It is in that way that the living water flows unimpeded. We all, who are Christ's, share in the same Spirit, His life already fills us, and all that remains is that we believe this to be true, and then live accordingly.

    Much love!
     
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