Philip James
Well-Known Member
Clearly implicit in that verse is that Timothy has the authority to ordain someone through the laying on of hands and responsibility for the actions of the one so ordained.
Peace!
Just for....those who, well, not just for some, but for all who would love God.
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Clearly implicit in that verse is that Timothy has the authority to ordain someone through the laying on of hands and responsibility for the actions of the one so ordained.
Peace!
Philip James
Well-Known Member
I am pretty sure we are not yet in agreement about instruction for the laying on of hands. What do you mean by gaps?
There is much that is alluded to, or implicit in scripture that can only be properly understood by the life of the Church.
For example who can ordain a bishop or a presbyter? Can anyone?
What exactly did laying on of hands entail? Was it different for ordination, for baptism, for healing the sick?
How many presbyters should a congregation have ? How many bishops?
what was the relationship between the Church in one location and that in another?
How large was each churches territory?
How would they settle disputes? Who acted as judge for the community? For disputes between different churches?
How do we 'bear with one another in love' and preserve, preach, teach and pass on the full deposit of faith that we received from the apostles?
Peace
Philip James
Well-Known Member
An apostolic community is one that was founded by an apostle, or one in communion with the apostles, or one founded by and in communion with these communities... (wow thats an awkward sentence lol)
For example: the communities in communion with the churches in Rome, Alexandria and Constantinople.
These communities all have faithfully passed on from generation to generation the ONE loaf, and the ONE cup broken and blessed by Jesus.
Now that's a great question! I hope you ask it of Jesus and the Holy Spirit often!
What you are missing, by not being in an apostolic community, is joining your brothers and sisters all over the world in offering the pure sacrifice of Malachi 1:11
What you are missing, is the intimate union of the Groom and His bride: the two made one flesh.
"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.
All are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!
Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
@Philip James
We need to stick to one point at time I think. many questions and assertions aren't being addressed.
Am I as fully fledged as the pope? Or am I second rate because I don't find the pope to be infallable? Do you still teach pope infallability? That's kind of core to your view, right?
We need to stick to one point at time I think. many questions and assertions aren't being addressed.
Am I as fully fledged as the pope? Or am I second rate because I don't find the pope to be infallable? Do you still teach pope infallability? That's kind of core to your view, right?
What I meant was missing in my understanding of what you are saying, but you've made yourself clear.
I believe I understand your view.
But I already have true communion with the true children of God.
Much love!
Philip James
Well-Known Member
You mean like the one you have yet to answer that started us down the discussion on authority?
I apologize if my attempt to answer your many and varied questions has moved us away from this point, so I'll bring us bavck there and ask you again:
If no one has spiritual authority over another, how can they 'perish in the rebellion of Korah' ?
Peace be with you!
So what differentiates your idea of "apostolic community" with my church that is founded on the one foundation, Jesus Christ, and the teachings of the Apostles?
Jude
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Where is the statement of authority exactly?
You surmise that since they are judged for an attitude, that this means God put some men as rulers over others spiritually.
This is all about envy.
Cain envied Able.
Balaam envied the kings riches.
Korah envied what God did with Moses.
But there is no statement of authority.
We are told to submit one to another. That's directly against this concept of authority.
Those who would be great are to serve others.
Seems to me the pope is greatly served by the enormous wealth at his disposal.
We are not be be like the gentiles, lording over one another.
All these crystal clear statements. No surmising needed.
Much love!
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Philip James
Well-Known Member
and murdered his brother
and prostituted his gift for his own enrichment
and rebelled against his authority, claiming it for himself (and the congregation)
They stood before Moses,
and held an assembly against Moses and Aaron, to whom they said, "Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the LORD is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the LORD'S congregation?"
On the contrary, that upholds the authority of the Church. Those who refuse to submit to the bishops and the presbyters, are making the same mistake as Korah, assuming that they have 'set themselves over the congregation', rather than that the Holy Spirit has done so. There is not a bishop or a presbyter who has not submitted to the Church and thus to all of us. They are indeed our servants, and God bless them for it!
exactly
That does not belong to him, and he will be judged on how he manages the resources of the Church, as well as held responsible for the sheep entrusted to his care. Thus we need to pray for him.
Indeed, and neither are we to scorn lordship and reject the valid authority of our elders.
then the Lord knows how to rescue the devout from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
and especially those who follow the flesh with its depraved desire and show contempt for lordship
Peace!
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Have I not made that clear?
I shall try another way...
I'm not sure that you do, so I'll lay it out for you:
I believe you, and those others of my protestant brethren that are sincere in their faith, follow Jesus as best they are able, with the light that they have been given..
They have read the love letters from our Master (both the old and the new), they believe He is Who He said He was, that He died for us and rose again, That He is our Saviour and our Lord, and have accepted His marriage proposal.
And so they are betrothed to Him.
What remains is to consumate that marriage by joining us at the Feast!
If Rome is your stumbling block, then come with Alexandria! Come with Constantinople! But come!
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.
And in this you suppose that God did the same thing with Moses and with your pope and bishops and all.
Firstly, why would we try to use Old Covenant to define the New? It's New.
Secondly, why would we put ourselves under the same legal system of the Old Covenant? We have a New Covenant.
So I am in the camp of Korah. This just gets darker and darker.
Seriously my friend? Joining you at the wedding feast of the Lamb?
There is a directness in my relationship with God, with Jesus, which requires no extra invitation from some man.
Do you mean the Lord's Supper? Conscience would prevent me from joining you at that in your church, but I don't have anything to say regarding how you practice. So long as you are right with God, He will guide you.
But just the same, again, my direct relationship with my Creator, well, pretty much the same answer.
Much love!
I don't remember seeing an answer.
Do you share both the bread and the cup?
Much love!
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Philip James
Well-Known Member
How else would you understand Christians 'perishing in the rebellion of Korah' than by understanding what that rebellion is?
Who said anything about the legal system of the Old Covenant? I am speaking about the anointed leadership of the Church.
Yes, seriously!
Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb.
Thank you for the discussion.
If you continue to follow wherever Jesus leads you, I am confident that He will bring you to the feast, in this world or the next. And I for one, will be overjoyed to see you there
May He bless you abundantly, and draw you ever closer to Himself!
Peace be with you!
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Hello Waiting,
How could I possibly know how God views the Pope?
As for myself, all my brethren are greater than I, and I wouldnt wish it any other way...
Peace be with you!
I have a difficult time getting my mind around the fact that you truly believe I'm less than because I don't share your earthly associations. That my doctrine is less than because I hold to the Bible over the pronouncements of man.
I hope you can at least see what I see to be a clear contradiction, as we are told over and over to submit one to another, in crystal clear language, and while you may surmise various things from various passages that there must be some kind of authority being talked about, yet there are other ways to read these passages, and there is not an outright statement granting authority or defining it's scope. Not in the way that the passages instruction submission one to another, and the passages that we are not to lord over others.
We go round and round on these things because they are not clear. If you wish I can revisit the rebellion of Korah, as it seems to be a very strong part of your argument.
But in essence, well, let me put it this way. I can be given as a teacher to the church, and someone could come along and say, Hey! I want to be teacher to the church! Why shouldn't me and my sons be teachers! You take too much on yourself! How dare you! ME! I!
And this person then is commiting the same sin.
Jude vs. 11
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
Again, the way of Cain was to envy Able's acceptance. Balaam's error was to envy the king's riches. And Korah envied Moses' position.
That some may commit the sin of Korah does not constitute a decree of authority given to those they've envied. It just isn't part of it.
Much love!
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