Just for....those who, well, not just for some, but for all who would love God.

[Waiting on him]

Did Jesus come to destroy religious practices or to perfect them?

As for the pharisees, of course there are similarities. They had legitimate authority as Jesus pointed out when He told His disciples ' do all they tell you for they sit in Moses' seat'.
But He also told the pharisees that care for 'the vineyard' would be taken from them and given to others. Who are 'these others' if not the apostles and the bishops and presbyters ordained by them?

Peace!

It’s my opinion from what I read He came to destroy it.
As far as doing as they say, they were still in observation of Mosaic law, but He said don’t do as they do. Do as they say
The Lord in my opinion was more a doer kinda man, than a sayer. I don’t believe he wanted them to fall under the same hypocrisy that the so called religious rulers were under.
As for your other question, it seems your stating that the Apostles are ordained by Pharisees?

 

[Philip James]

What am I a part of if not the Universal Church of Jesus Christ?



Then let me ask plainly, am I? Am I a part of the Universal (Catholic) Church of Jesus Christ?

Much love!

Have you been baptized? Do you wish to be?

If you have received the new birth then yes you are a part of the Catholic Church, even if not formally so.

From the CCC:

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God.... and to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320


Peace!

 

[Philip James]

As for your other question, it seems your stating that the Apostles are ordained by Pharisees?

No. I'm stating that the authority to manage 'the vineyard' was taken from the Pharisees and given to the apostles by Jesus!

And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Peace!

 

[marks]

Acts 14:23

They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.

They appointed elders, yes, and where is the statement that gives them authority, and what authority is given?

And of course there's the letters to Timothy which are instruction to a presbyter/bishop...

Let no one have contempt for your youth, but set an example for those who believe, in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity.

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.

Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.

Do you now acknowledge that some were given authority as elders in the Church? Or do you need more verses?

What I'm asking for is the verse or verses that confer authority to the elders, and what that authority encompasses.

Much love!

 

[marks]

the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ,

Tell me more about this please.
Thank you!

 

[marks]

And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Curious, do you see this passage as applying just to those men to whom Jesus spoke it? Or to all men?

much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

They appointed elders, yes, and where is the statement that gives them authority, and what authority is given?

What I'm asking for is the verse or verses that confer authority to the elders, and what that authority encompasses.

Much love!

May take a while

 

[Waiting on him]

No. I'm stating that the authority to manage 'the vineyard' was taken from the Pharisees and given to the apostles by Jesus!

And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Peace!

Are you part of the clergy?

 

[ScottA]

That High Priest gave authority to His apostles and through them to the bishops and presbyters. It is rejecting that authority (which is Christ's authority working through them!) and especially rejecting that authority in saying 'who are ____ and ____ that they should rule over us? Are we not all anointed priests, prophets and kings?' that is the 'rebellion of Korah' that Christians can fall into...

Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me

And yes, we are all servants, of Jesus, and of each other. By which it should be easy to do this:

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.


Peace!

It is good that you left blanks instead of naming names...but that is the problem. But, as I said, you have those who should be named backwards. It is not the leaders that were appointed by the church who were given authority, but those appointed by God, just as it was with Moses and Aaron and not with the followers of Korah. Those appointed by the church have their duties and even gifts, but they are not those who are to sit in Moses' or Christs' seat. For this He appointed some prophets, who were named first among those who lead.

 

[Philip James]

Tell me more about this please.
Thank you!

The Church is ONE all who are saved through Christ belong to it.

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.

 

[Philip James]

It is not the leaders that were appointed by the church who were given authority, but those appointed by God

um, that is what I have been saying! God ordained the apostles, and through the apostles other men (by the laying on of hands) and that is how authority has always been passed on in the Church.

The living witness of all the ancient apostolic churches testify to this.

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

Are you part of the clergy?

no

 

[Philip James]

Curious, do you see this passage as applying just to those men to whom Jesus spoke it? Or to all men?

much love!

It applies to the apostles and to the presbyters who received that authority through the laying on of hands.

What I'm asking for is the verse or verses that confer authority to the elders, and what that authority encompasses.

we've already looked at many. Titus showed that they receive the authority to ordain other presbyters. hebrews showed us that they have the authority to 'watch over us'.

The council of Jerusalem in Acts shows they have the authority to settle doctrinal disputes and impose discipline.

Do you want more? or are you ready to discuss the ones I've already posted?

Perhaps an answer to my first question: How can a Christian fall into the rebellion of korah ?

 

[Giuliano]

The council of Jerusalem in Acts shows they have the authority to settle doctrinal disputes and impose discipline.

I don't see them settling doctrine.

 

[ScottA]

um, that is what I have been saying! God ordained the apostles, and through the apostles other men (by the laying on of hands) and that is how authority has always been passed on in the Church.

The living witness of all the ancient apostolic churches testify to this.

Peace!

You are giving the apostles even more credit than Christ did. This is wrong. One of twelve was a devil, but you are acting as if they all can multiply perfection at their own hands. They cannot, but by definition they are simply those sent. There were miracles, but also failures.

Indeed, it is good to give double honor to those send, but all who are called are not sent. Lift up Christ, not men, for only God can raise up men.

 

[marks]

It applies to the apostles and to the presbyters who received that authority through the laying on of hands.

This is what I'm trying to center in on.

Where in the Bible can we read about authority over others being conferred by the laying on of hands, and where can we read what that authority specifically involves.

I mean, is it the apostles only who can confer authority? The elders? The deacons? Where can we look?

And is that authority over matters not covered by civil law? does it replace civil law? Coexist? Where do we read about that?

Is the authority over whom we can marry? What we can eat? Whether we CAN marry? Where do we read about that?

These are the things I'm looking for.

we've already looked at many. Titus showed that they receive the authority to ordain other presbyters.

If you'll bear with me, I just don't recall seeing any statement either in my own searching or in what you have offered that tells us this.

Who exactly received authority? Paul told Titus to appoint elders. Is that what you mean? So that I can appoint elders too? Or do you mean that elders appoint elders? Does it? I can't think of a place, so I'm asking.

hebrews showed us that they have the authority to 'watch over us'.

What does that involve exactly? To me, church oversight is to bring harmony to disputes, to bring clarity to confusion, to bring safety when wolves try to savage the flock. To shepherd the flock of God, even for Jesus my Shepherd.

Some appear to believe that oversight to the church is to examine and approve or reject each sheep. Some appear to believe it means that they can command the worshippers to wash their car and clean their home upon threat of damnation.

For some the damnation comes if you don't follow their prescription of salvation and devotion though it not appear in Scripture.

For some, eldership is lordship over others, and self-aggrandizement. These are things which frankly infuriate me.

Elders are there as mature believer who help show the way to our eternally living and loving Father, who receives each one personally, and knows each personally, and requires no middleman.

All we are to do is dispense God's grace to those who would receive it. But some take on so much more to themselves.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Church is ONE all who are saved through Christ belong to it.

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.

the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ,

Perhaps I'm not reading this correctly. It looks to me that this calls "the Catholic faithful" as separate from "others who believe in Christ". What is the distinction between these? Or is this simply redundant, that the Catholic Faithful are all those who believe in Christ?

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ,

Perhaps I'm not reading this correctly. It looks to me that this calls "the Catholic faithful" as separate from "others who believe in Christ". What is the distinction between these? Or is this simply redundant, that the Catholic Faithful are all those who believe in Christ?

Much love!

The 'Catholic faithful' are those who are in communion with the bishops of the Church and thus with the community of the apostles, they are those who hold fast to the full 'deposit of faith delivered once for all'..

'others who believe in Christ' would be these: "So then not all are in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God."

Peace!

 

[marks]

The 'Catholic faithful' are those who are in communion with the bishops of the Church and thus with the community of the apostles, they are those who hold fast to the full 'deposit of faith delivered once for all'..

'others who believe in Christ' would be these: "So then not all are in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God."

Peace!

So I'm OK to be called a Christian, but I'm in disunity with the true church. Got it.

Thank you for the clarification.

God did say that some division is needful so that others can know who is approved.

Much love!

 

[marks]

they are those who hold fast to the full 'deposit of faith delivered once for all'..

Oh, I just realized the implictions of this part of your answer.

Not looking to good for me then, is it?