What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Grailhunter]

'Reading' and then ignoring.

PW: your salvation is not tied to me being a devil worshiper (which I am not). It's ok for you to listen and get your facts straight about what I believe. Your salvation isn't tied to the idea that I don't know Christ. Would you like to actually talk and listen about things?

I have some questions.....you know they are friendly....not really off topic.....care to play?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I have some questions.....you know they are friendly....not really off topic.....care to play?

Sure.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I'm sorry JD, but I really don't understand all that you're saying here. On a forum, when I want to say what I believe about something, I post a comment. Anyone is free to read my comment. This is listening. If someone doesn't understand what I'm saying, they can ask. Or not. If they agree or disagree with what I'm saying, they can post a comment.... This begins a discussion if both people want to continue.

Even though I've said that I've read many of your comments where you explain your beliefs, you seem to want to discuss your beliefs with me. What would you like to talk about specifically? You begin the discussion.
.

Let's start with basic & super important stuff:
The Father, the Son, and Spirit are three different divine persons. When Christ is baptized, it is the Father (a different person) saying from Heaven "this is my beloved Son"-- it's not Christ doing some ventriloquist act and flattering Himself. Same with the Spirit descending like a dove. Three different divine persons.

And comments on this point?

The next point would be talking that these three persons are one God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Sure.

In your own words, why did Joseph Smith "start" the belief of Mormonism?
Something he believed?
An event?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

In your own words, why did Joseph Smith "start" the belief of Mormonism?
Something he believed?
An event?

He didn't. Don't mix up a messenger and the Message (Christ).

This is God's Truth, existing even before the Earth was formed. If a person want to know that, they should seek Him and ask Him.

 

[brakelite]

Let's start with basic & super important stuff:
The Father, the Son, and Spirit are three different divine persons. When Christ is baptized, it is the Father (a different person) saying from Heaven "this is my beloved Son"-- it's not Christ doing some ventriloquist act and flattering Himself. Same with the Spirit descending like a dove. Three different divine persons.

And comments on this point?

The next point would be talking that these three persons are one God.

I can understand this. This is to the point. I don't entirely agree that it is wholly biblical, but I don't like to debate the Godhead because I don't think anyone knows the full truth about the nature of God.
But I do have a supplementary question. Serious. Your statement of belief above... Is this your personal belief.. Or what you believe LDS teaches... Or both? If both, why does it sound so different to what we read in official LDS literature?

 

[Grailhunter]

He didn't. Don't mix up a messenger and the Message (Christ).

This is God's Truth, existing even before the Earth was formed. If a person want to know that, they should seek Him and ask Him.

Don't get defensive. Although I can see why you would.
Correct me if I am wrong...he was Wesleyan Methodists for a time?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I can understand this. This is to the point. I don't entirely agree that it is wholly biblical, but I don't like to debate the Godhead because I don't think anyone knows the full truth about the nature of God.
But I do have a supplementary question. Serious. Your statement of belief above... Is this your personal belief.. Or what you believe LDS teaches... Or both? If both, why does it sound so different to what we read in official LDS literature?

Because you do not understand what you read- there's a lot of misconceptions that traditionally go into both sides here.

For one such example: many LDS Christians have the misconception that Creedal Christian's believe that the Father/Son/Spirit are all the same person and that Creedal Christians do think there is some ventriloquist act is going on. That's is obviously not what's really going on and not the predominate Creedal Christian view. But it takes a LOT of work, listening, and honest humility to weed out these misconceptions and get to the actual picture.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

In your own words, why did Joseph Smith "start" the belief of Mormonism?
Something he believed?
An event?

He didn't. Don't mix up a messenger and the Message (Christ).

This is God's Truth, existing even before the Earth was formed. If a person want to know that, they should seek Him and ask Him.

Don't get defensive. Although I can see why you would.

Grailhunter, I know you, your honestly and sincere Christ-like approach to things here. I'm not remotely defensive with you.

My highlighting that I am a disciple of Christ is not a matter of being defensive, but stating honest beliefs. I'm really not a disciple of Jospeh Smith and he's not the origin of the Gospel or Church at all. It's Christ's Church and Christ's Gospel. It pre-dates Joseph Smith, it pre-dates Christ's earthly ministry, it pre-dates Adam, and pre-dates the Earth's creation.

 

[Grailhunter]

Grailhunter, I know you, your honestly and sincere Christ-like approach to things here. I'm not remotely defensive with you.

My highlighting that I am a disciple of Christ is not a matter of being defensive, but stating honest beliefs. I'm really not a disciple of Jospeh Smith and he's not the origin of the Gospel or Church at all. It's Christ's Church and Christ's Gospel. It pre-dates Joseph Smith, it pre-dates Christ's earthly ministry, it pre-dates Adam, and pre-dates the Earth's creation.

I would say that I have a little more understanding of Mormonism than your average non-Mormon. lol If you only knew.
I understand the age. I understand the relationships before this age. I understand the validity of your beliefs.
Joseph Smith had an experience, a vision, an epiphany that changed his course.
What was that?
I have a reason for asking.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I would say that I have a little more understanding of Mormonism than your average non-Mormon. lol If you only knew.
I understand the age. I understand the relationships before this age. I understand the validity of your beliefs.
Joseph Smith had an experience, a vision, an epiphany that changed his course.
What was that?
I have a reason for asking.

If you're asking about the First Vision, here's a link: First Vision

But that is not the origin of the Gospel nor the core of it.

 

[Grailhunter]

If you're asking about the First Vision, here's a link: First Vision

But that is not the origin of the Gospel nor the core of it.

Again I understand. I am not professing to be an expert on Mormonism. I can tell you more about the relationship between the Mormons and Freemasons than I can tell you about details of Mormonism. I will look at this link...thanks

 

[Grailhunter]

If you're asking about the First Vision, here's a link: First Vision

But that is not the origin of the Gospel nor the core of it.

Ok, I saved that and I read down to 40. It is as I remembered, except I thought it was in Philadelphia...lol
As I remembered he equated this experience with the experience Paul had. So he received divine direction that was communication over a period of time. I have often wondered how many encounters Paul had.

So my next question is to @Prayer Warrior, Besides the obvious, that all our beliefs include the Bible, where did your belief start. An experience, personal or someone else's or a religious movement that you chose. What say you? It is more or less the same question.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Ok, I saved that and I read down to 40. It is as I remembered, except I thought it was in Philadelphia...lol
As I remembered he equated this experience with the experience Paul had. So he received divine direction that was communication over a period of time. I have often wondered how many encounters Paul had.

So my next question is to @Prayer Warrior, Besides the obvious, that all our beliefs include the Bible, where did your belief start. An experience, personal or someone else's or a religious movement that you chose. What say you? It is more or less the same question.

Literally from hearing/reading the Gospel of Matthew.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Literally from hearing/reading the Gospel of Matthew.

The Gospel of Matthew is indeed Great.

 

[Grailhunter]

Literally from hearing/reading the Gospel of Matthew.

So effectively what your saying, is that you picked up the Holy Bible and the Word of God impressed you...spoke to you...in a literary manner. Nothing wrong with that. What is written in the Holy Bible has saved countless millions, I don't care what denominations they are. Then again, you read about Paul's conversion. Do you believe he had problems with the other Apostles believing him? Do you believe that by reading the Holy Bible that you can understand what is going in that time period? If you do not understand the time period, can something get lost in the reading, much less the translation?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

So effectively what your saying, is that you picked up the Holy Bible and the Word of God impressed you...spoke to you...in a literary manner. Nothing wrong with that. What is written in the Holy Bible has saved countless millions, I don't care what denominations they are.

Literary?? God spoke to me through His word. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD. (Romans 10:17)

God imparted saving faith to me through His word as the Holy Spirit convicted me of sin....

Then again, you read about Paul's conversion. Do you believe he had problems with the other Apostles believing him? Do you believe that by reading the Holy Bible that you can understand what is going in that time period? If you do not understand the time period, can something get lost in the reading, much less the translation?

I don't understand what you're saying here. What is your point?

 

[Grailhunter]

Literary?? God spoke to me through His word. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD. He imparted saving faith to me through His word as the Holy Spirit convicted me of sin....



I don't understand what you're saying here. What is your point?

At the time, the Bible is not written. The Gospels may have or may not have been in the process of being written. Paul receives a vision...a visitation...from Christ. What he receives is additional information...different information. For sure different information. What Paul ends up doing is offering salvation to the Pagan. This is horrible to them! The Pagans...Rome is their worst enemy! Everything about them is sacrilegious to the Jews. It is unthinkable. My first point is that change is difficult for people to accept in the historical sense. It does not matter if it was the Jewish prophets or Paul or Joseph Smith. 2000 years has passed, would it even make sense that God would not interact with someone. The Catholic have documentation of it happening throughout history. Paul went on to write the majority of the Bible....letters we call scriptures....The Jewish Christians were opposed to anyone teaching anything but the Gospel...they did not know that Paul's writings would be considered scriptures. How would their reaction be?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

At the time, the Bible is not written. The Gospels may have or may not have been in the process of being written. Paul receives a vision...a visitation...from Christ. What he receives is additional information...different information. For sure different information. What Paul ends up doing is offering salvation to the Pagan. This is horrible to them! The Pagans...Rome is their worst enemy! Everything about them is sacrilegious to the Jews. It is unthinkable. My first point is that change is difficult for people to accept in the historical sense. It does not matter if it was the Jewish prophets or Paul or Joseph Smith. 2000 years has passed, would it even make sense that God would not interact with someone. The Catholic have documentation of it happening throughout history. Paul went on to write the majority of the Bible....letters we call scriptures....The Jewish Christians were opposed to anyone teaching anything but the Gospel...they did not know that Paul's writings would be considered scriptures. How would their reaction be?

So, what you're saying is that I and other Christians reject Mormonism because it's "different" from what we're used to??? Like, we just can't shift gears in our little minds and accept this newfangled theology? Is this what you're saying?

If this is the case, then why aren't you a Mormon? Why do YOU not accept Mormon doctrine as the latest and greatest revelation from God?
.

 

[Grailhunter]

So, what you're saying is that I and other Christians reject Mormonism because it's "different" from what we're used to??? Like, we just can't shift gears in our little minds and accept this newfangled theology? Is this what you're saying?

If this is the case, then why aren't you a Mormon? Why do YOU not accept Mormon doctrine as the latest and greatest revelation from God?
.

You keep taking what I say to you negatively. Again fundamentalism is sound concept. Nothing wrong with it. Little minds...how many time have I told you that I think you are smart. Newfangled...lol...In the grand scheme of things Protestantism is newfangled.
What I am saying is that fundamentalism is about sticking to the scriptures between the covers of the Bible. My fundamentalist friends want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to step out of the covers of the Bible and try to understand or comment on beliefs that occurred after the close of the Bible. Are you even suppose to do that? Why would you be interested in visions, revelations, and visitations if it is your belief that God cannot do any of that after the close of the Bible. Would it not be contrary to fundamentalism if you had a vision and something different or additional than what is in the Bible was reveled to you. Would you call it witchcraft? Should you pray that God never interacts with you? What would you do if he did?