A New Transformation is required for the modern Church

[Episkopos]

The Early Church Thrived Amid Secularism and Shows How We Can, Too

 

[Episkopos]

I'd like to explore some of the ideas from the posted article in the OP. Please peruse it in order to comment on it.

Since the lowering of the standard of Christianity into people deciding for themselves if they are Christian through acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice by one's own will...but not so much His way of life (even not at all)...we need to look at what makes a person a Christian in the true sense of the word. I tend towards seeing "Christian" as a verb rather than a noun. If a person is full of love and brokenness towards others...then that would be acting like a Christian in my view. The religious posturing we normally see I see as false together with portraying God in a false way.

Of course the enemy and obstacle to a true witness of the faith is the religion that has stolen the name for itself. The level of corruption found in religion can only be compared with the same levels we see in human politics. It is no wonder that these look to support each other.

We live in a time that is post-Christendom. What was once taken for granted no longer applies.

And I see this as a good thing. Christ needs to be re-discovered by the church. The living Jesus Christ.

A return to simplicity...to real discipleship after conversion... to a holy and righteous standard being made the norm, not the exception.

 

[ScottA]

I tend towards seeing "Christian" as a verb rather than a noun

That statement (above) is perhaps the point of error, as it is diabolically opposed to "I am", meaning, opposed to God.

But there are two things that make one a "Christian":

(1) One who is called and follows Christ, even if only for a time.

(2) One into whom Christ has come.​

Some would say that the first is not even a Christian...but that does not fit the model of the parable of seeds falling upon good or pour ground. Both are called, but few are chosen...which does not change the calling, but does change the outcome.

But the second (those into whom Christ has come) have died to that fallible self, and it is no longer they who live, but Christ who lives in them.

As for the first century church, lets not forget the Christ was "somewhat against" 5 out of 7 churches named in Revelation. The good examples there are few.

 

[marks]

Since the lowering of the standard of Christianity into people deciding for themselves if they are Christian through acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice by one's own will...

Well there the first logical fallacy.

Disparage all non-Calvinists. Great start.

 

[marks]

To the article, yes, if your church is all about entertainment with no discipling, teaching, what the Bible tells us, certainly, you need a church that's going to be more about the Bible, understanding it, living it.

 

[marks]

I tend towards seeing "Christian" as a verb rather than a noun.

That would be a mistake. When we start redefining the words in Scripture, error will result.

In retrospect, this actually helps me to understand how you are so down on true Christians. If you consider Christian to be a verb, then you're in line with a great many who seem to believe that living what they feel is a "good life" means they are Christians. So if you see someone and you don't think they are living a good enough life, then you don't think of them as Christain.

Christianity as matter of faith and rebirth is something completely different from that.

 

[The wind]

Real Christians are those that obey the Commandments of Christ Jesus. As it is written, why call me Lord Lord and do not the things which I say. This is what Jesus meant when he said to love one another, as it is written,
I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments.

The second commandment in 1st John 3 verse 23 is referring to doing the Commandments of Christ: this is Loving one another.

 

[Episkopos]

That statement (above) is perhaps the point of error, as it is diabolically opposed to "I am", meaning, opposed to God.

That would only be possible if you claim to have been in the burning bush with God...or that somehow you have been elevated into being God yourself.

Otherwise if you see yourself as human...this life is a race that all will be judged on at the end. So then for people without delusions...the kind you seem to be promoting...we are but humble servants running the race of faith.

 

[ScottA]

That would only be possible if you claim to have been in the burning bush with God...or that somehow you have been elevated into being God yourself.

Otherwise if you see yourself as human...this life is a race that all will be judged on at the end. So then for people without delusions...the kind you seem to be promoting...we are but humble servants running the race of faith.

Perhaps you don't understand my point..

To say you see "Christian" as a verb, is against those who have arrived, against the saved.

Here above your explanation leaves out the saved, the sealed, those who have entered eternal life, those who "though they die they shall surely live", those "who are alive and remain" (in the world).

So, unless you are only referring to "seekers", it would appear that by false doctrine you are attempting to take Christ out of those whom He has already entered into, in whom they have attained perfection in Him in God.

 

[Episkopos]

Perhaps you don't understand my point..

To say you see "Christian" as a verb, is against those who have arrived, against the saved.

Here above your explanation leaves out the saved, the sealed, those who have entered eternal life, those who "though they die they shall surely live", those "who are alive and remain" (in the world).

So, unless you are only referring to "seekers", it would appear that by false doctrine you are attempting to take Christ out of those whom He has already entered into, in whom they have attained perfection in Him in God.

You are referring to a "saved status" that is taught these days. But we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Read this for yourself. This life is a race. No one wins until the finish. Check out sports that have races to see how people can be overconfident and lose the race.

Jesus said that those who endure to the end will be saved. Again you can read this for yourself.

So then you are looking for a status...whereas we are to bear as much fruit as possible with God's grace helping us to that end.

Many people who believe in their status will weep and gnash their teeth (be very angry at they who taught them lies) on the day when all is revealed.

 

[John Caldwell]

"Nothing short of a change of church culture will suffice—from a culture of entertainment, politics, personality, and program to a culture of discipleship."

This is the key, IMHO.

In the Bible people are Christians because they model their lives after Jesus. This is what being a disciple was to mean. Doers of the word and not hearers only.

Today "disciple" has taken on a more theological and philosophical meaning. Discipleship seems often to be group studies, prayer, and small group attendance and the measure of faith one's theological "understanding".

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This life is a race. No one wins until the finish. Check out sports that have races to see how people can be overconfident and lose the race.

similar to running just like the world to get to the prize? Have to be honest...that is not too comforting.


Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[ScottA]

You are referring to a "saved status" that is taught these days. But we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Read this for yourself. This life is a race. No one wins until the finish. Check out sports that have races to see how people can be overconfident and lose the race.

Jesus said that those who endure to the end will be saved. Again you can read this for yourself.

So then you are looking for a status...whereas we are to bear as much fruit as possible with God's grace helping us to that end.

Many people who believe in their status will weep and gnash their teeth (be very angry at they who taught them lies) on the day when all is revealed.

You are doing it again--speaking as if "saved" is not saved.

I would rather be more kind--I really would...but that is not your Yes being Yes, but rather you calling good evil, and what God has joined, you separate.

That mindset is the result of "That which is born of the flesh" speaking for itself. That is not the Spirit talking. For the flesh waits for death, but those born again of the spirit of God have past from death to life...already.

What you are doing is called: Religion...like lawyers living under the law and making it their god.

...So, unless you actually want to wait until you're dead to find out the truth...stop hindering the Spirit and those who would or have entered in. That kind of religious mindset should have been over 2000 years ago. Luke 11:52

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The Early Church Thrived Amid Secularism and Shows How We Can, Too

I enjoyed this article, esp. his conclusion.

Nothing short of a change of church culture will suffice—from a culture of entertainment, politics, personality, and program to a culture of discipleship. Such a radical change will require patience, steadiness, and purposefulness.​

The good news is, we are not alone, and the story of early Christianity reminds us of this fact. Faithful Christians have gone before us, bearing witness to the truth of Christianity, the power of the gospel, and the high calling of discipleship. Calling out across the centuries, they tell us that it is possible now, as it was then, to live as faithful followers of Jesus the Lord in a culture that does not approve of it or reward it.​

Two millennia ago, Jesus Christ—his incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension—set in motion a movement that turned the world upside down. He is the same Lord today. It can happen again.
​

I believe that it will take some persecution to bring about substantive changes in churches. Who wants to be entertained when they're in danger of losing everything for the sake of the gospel?
.

 

[ScottA]

Nothing short of a change of church culture will suffice—from a culture of entertainment, politics, personality, and program to a culture of discipleship. Such a radical change will require patience, steadiness, and purposefulness.
The good news is, we are not alone, and the story of early Christianity reminds us of this fact. Faithful Christians have gone before us, bearing witness to the truth of Christianity, the power of the gospel, and the high calling of discipleship. Calling out across the centuries, they tell us that it is possible now, as it was then, to live as faithful followers of Jesus the Lord in a culture that does not approve of it or reward it.
Two millennia ago, Jesus Christ—his incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension—set in motion a movement that turned the world upside down. He is the same Lord today. It can happen again.

Thanks for quoting the article. Many of us don't do links.

But while discipleship is good and a commandment from the Lord, his comment, saying "It can happen again", would mean we have learned nothing. Jesus reporting that He had "somewhat against" 5 out of 7 churches named in Revelation, is not something we should want to repeat. And the history of the church--OMG, are you kidding?

The best that can be said of the past 2000 years (including the first century), is that the church carried the water of the gospel, in spite of a multitude of failures. Most are like the wicked servant who received one talent and hid it in the ground!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Thanks for quoting the article. Many of us don't do links.

But while discipleship is good and a commandment from the Lord, his comment, saying "It can happen again", would mean we have learned nothing. Jesus reporting that He had "somewhat against" 5 out of 7 churches named in Revelation, is not something we should want to repeat. And the history of the church--OMG, are you kidding?

The best that can be said of the past 2000 years (including the first century), is that the church carried the water of the gospel, in spite of a multitude of failures. Most are like the wicked servant who received one talent and hid it in the ground!

Not all believers go for the new church culture of superstars and rock concert worship. Some of us have left that behind for a much less popular and simple church culture of following and serving Jesus Christ as we swim upstream modern culture.

This is what I appreciate in particular about his conclusion: "...to live as faithful followers of Jesus the Lord in a culture that does not approve of it or reward it."

I may have more to say about this later. It's very late where I am, so I may have to give your comment more thought when my brain is working better. :)

 

[ScottA]

Not all believers go for the new church culture of superstars and rock concert worship. Some of us have left that behind for a much less popular and simple church culture of following and serving Jesus Christ as we swim upstream modern culture.

This is what I appreciate in particular about his conclusion: "...to live as faithful followers of Jesus the Lord in a culture that does not approve of it or reward it."

I may have more to say about this later. It's very late where I am, so I may have to give your comment more thought when my brain is working better. :)

Traditions and cultural variations are not necessarily the problem, but rather what is left out of the gospel.

For instance: What church have you heard of in the past 2000 years that has picked up where Paul left off, and actually declared "leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ" and "pressing on?"

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Traditions and cultural variations are not necessarily the problem, but rather what is left out of the gospel.

I would say that one of the main reasons the gospel is watered down is because of many churches' desire to appeal to popular culture.

 

[Jay Ross]

Most are like the wicked servant who received one talent and hid it in the ground!

And who was the servant's master? Is not this parable and the parable of the Minas talking about the same person, and the answer is not Jesus?

ScottA it seems that you do not understand the Gospel that Jesus Preached nor have you understood his parables.

And you speak as if you have the gifting which I have not seen on display on this forum.

Shalom

 

[Episkopos]

I enjoyed this article, esp. his conclusion.

Nothing short of a change of church culture will suffice—from a culture of entertainment, politics, personality, and program to a culture of discipleship. Such a radical change will require patience, steadiness, and purposefulness.​

The good news is, we are not alone, and the story of early Christianity reminds us of this fact. Faithful Christians have gone before us, bearing witness to the truth of Christianity, the power of the gospel, and the high calling of discipleship. Calling out across the centuries, they tell us that it is possible now, as it was then, to live as faithful followers of Jesus the Lord in a culture that does not approve of it or reward it.​

Two millennia ago, Jesus Christ—his incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension—set in motion a movement that turned the world upside down. He is the same Lord today. It can happen again.
​

I believe that it will take some persecution to bring about substantive changes in churches. Who wants to be entertained when they're in danger of losing everything for the sake of the gospel?
.

Glad you enjoyed it. :) The article raises up some very god points and is done both faithfully and honestly.
God has His people seeking the way to impact the world for Christ without compromising the truth.

Have you heard of Shane Claiborne? He is living out what he calls "the new monasticism" which consists of a cluster of a few families that seek to renew and revitalize the faith in a certain community inside a city. They are not a church however....so to me this falls short of the calling.

What I see is that within us must be an "inner monasticism" whereby one has emptied oneself (or been emptied by the cross) so that a communal life with others is not so difficult, in fact desirable. In that way one can have a family but also a shared life with others who live nearby so as to live as a light to that part of a city or town. The Christian life is a shared kingdom life that is so different from the world..all the while being fully engaged in the world. We are to be peculiar...different. Not living as the world lives.

The apostles called themselves "bondservants" of Christ. People who had chosen a life of slavery to Christ. Men who were emptied of themselves so that they could have Christ live through them. Men with no attachments to this world....free to shine out Christ. These then are the disciples of Jesus Christ.

This cannot be sustained as an individual. It takes a community of like-minded people to show forth the life and presence of God continually and consistently in an everyday life. The church is to reflect the love and presence of God to the world...in an ordinary and ongoing lifestyle.