The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Awesome. Too bad the catholic church can not take credit for that teaching and understanding.
That teaching is spot on Scriptural.

Forgiven by who? The Catholic church? Luther was all about doing his best to follow the Lord according to the Lord's direction. The Catholic church was put off because Luther challenged the Catholic church for teaching people they could buy their way into Heaven.

Scripture itself teaches;

Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE and for all.

[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

[12] But this man, after he had offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOR EVER , sat down on the right hand of God;

[14] For by ONE offering he hath perfected FOR EVER them that are sanctified.

Once and Forever is plain language in Scripture itself.

You have been informed on several occasions and shown verifying Scriptures on several occasions...THAT

Jesus came to earth and Offered His Body Once and for ALL. And ANY MAN WHO HEARTFULLY accepts Jesus' OFFER, IS ONCE and FOREVER Sanctified, Saved, and Born Again.

And thereafter FOREVER the Spirit of God will Remain with such a man.

Matt 28:
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You have consistently revealed you do not comprehend the DIFFERENCE between "hearing, learning, receiving small measures of faith from God, following along, claiming belief...............AND THEN rejecting the Lord.........

AND.... having heard, learned, received measures of faith from God, followed along, claimed belief............AND COMMITTED your belief "FROM YOUR HEARTS THOUGHTS".... TO THE Lord.

Many people .... hear, learn, receive measures of faith from God, follow along, claim belief, and may even believe ... until their MIND is convinced by other influences....that their beliefs are NOT TRUE....and they Deflect from Belief.

THEY NEVER "HEARTFULLY" Committed a belief in God to God...."THEY" gave "MINDFUL" lip service..and FELL FROM FAITH.
THEY FELL from "MINDFULLY Believing.
THEY FELL from God giving them MEASURES of FAITH.

Scripture clearly TEACHES, the Carnal Mind IS AGAINST God...

Scripture clearly TEACHES, it is the HEARTS thoughts that MAKE a declaration of BELIEF IN GOD....(and BECOME sanctified, saved, born again, ONCE and FOREVER).....NOT by a confession from the mans MIND.

Glory to God,
Taken

Well - after reading your posts this morning - I was going to say that I was GLAD to see that we could finally have a civil discussion - with different points of view that was completely devoid of the usual anti-Catholic horse manure you engage in.
Unfortunately - your posts got progressively worse - and sunk into a see of lies and ad hominems. What a drag . . .

First of all - Sola Scriptura and Sola Fida are absolutely NOT supported by Scripture.
Scripture is clear that Christ's Church is our final Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
You can quote 2 Tim. 3 until you're BLUE in the face and it will STILL only say that Scripture is "PROFITABLE" (Useful) - but NOT our final authority.

And repeating Eph. 2:8 over and over will NEVER make it say "Faith ONLY". Your Protestant Father Luther had to ADD that to his German translation. TRUE Faith is surrender to Christ - and surrender is OBEDIENCE - and until people like you experience this kind of faith - you will never know TRUE faith.

Finally - since this IS a thread about Purgatory until you and @Ezra hijacked it with your anti-Catholic nonsense - you STILL don't get it.
You keep idiotically misrepresenting what Final Purification is instead of simply having an intelligent discussion. You're still claiming that the Catholic Church sold indulgences and STILL DOES - which is a flat out LIE.

Certain men within the Church like Johann Tetzel sold Indulgences - and it was an abuse - NOT the norm. The Church never sanctioned this - and does NOT do it today, so I caught you in yet another LIE.

Until you can rationally discuss these matters - intelligent discussion is wasted on both of you . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, okay, I get that. Although we differ as to when this takes place... You think it's after we die...I think that time is now.
But in Catholic theology, how long does this purifying take? Is it a process or is it in one day on the day of judgement?

That is a mystery because Scripture is silent on the matter.
Once we are dead and being judged - we aren't really bound by time at that point anyway.

 

[Ezra]

rationally discuss these matters - intelligent discussion is wasted

with you there is no such thing

 

[BreadOfLife]

moronic response.. you keep claiming i have dodged the issue...i have hit you head on with scripture YOU REJECT i will say this is a prime example of a carnal mind---------> that is just about as good as mary taking your prayer to Jesus . mary was not sinless on earth. she was a chosen vessel , only person was ever sinless that is Christ.. get your head out of catholic teaching and read the bible . actually if you will read closely what taken has to post you might learn something ! note
(MIGHT ) SEE I HAVE A KNOW SO SALVATION i dont need purgatory as a security blanket .i have grace and faith ,,you have dead works

Sure she was.
But you don't want to know anyway - so why bother explaining it?

 

[Ezra]

That is a mystery because Scripture is silent on the matter.
Once we are dead and being judged - we aren't really bound by time at that point anyway.

more mythology

 

[BreadOfLife]

more mythology

with you there is no such thing

Thanks for making my point . . .

 

[Ezra]

Sure she was.

scripture that says that please or did mary tell you that?

 

[BreadOfLife]

scripture that says that please or did mary tell you that?

Any intelligent Scripture scholar can glean that from Luke 1:28.
I've never accused YOU of being intelligent - but give it a shot anyway . . .

 

[Ezra]

Any intelligent Scripture scholar can glean that from Luke 1:28.
I've never accused YOU of being intelligent - but give it a shot anyway . . .

highly favored is not sinless as can not sin if your so intelligent { cough cough) read Romans 3:23

 

[BreadOfLife]

highly favored is not sinless as can not sin if your so intelligent { cough cough) read Romans 3:23

Ummmmm . . . "Highly favored" is not what Luke wrote.
Like I said - an intelligent person would have understood that Luke's Gospel was written in Koine Greek - not English.

Back to the old drawing board, sparky . . .

 

[Taken]

BOL ~
Scripture is clear ...

Yes it is.

Christ's church is made up of men.

2 Tim 3:16
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

this IS a thread about Purgatory ...

And you brought up the topic of your claims of Mary's "sinlessness".
And you brought up the topic of your claims about OSAS.

What is your point? You hijacked the thread?

You're still claiming that the Catholic Church sold indulgences

Nope. First time I mentioned that, based on others historical investigating.

and STILL DOES - which is a flat out LIE.

Nope. Asked you if that was a sacred tradition of Catholics.

Certain

men within the Church like Johann Tetzel sold Indulgences -

The Catholic Church IS its members! So now you says a Catholic DID SELL indulgences.

First you lie, then you say I lie, that Catholics did not seek indulgences, and now you say a Catholic DID sell indulgences.

Slither, slither!

The Church never sanctioned this - and does NOT do it today, so I caught you in yet another LIE.

NEVER, eh? Uh...

Pope Francis grants for Dublin participants INDULGENCES

(By Mark McCleary BBC News NI 03 June 2018)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

That is a mystery because Scripture is silent on the matter.
Once we are dead and being judged - we aren't really bound by time at that point anyway.

You see, the reason I take a different perspective is because of what God promises is in this life. If we believe. For example, you mentioned previously that you considered it impossible to walk entirely according to the will of God, even though we may want to, you believe there will always be some part that is self willed. Now because you believe that, that is what you will get. Your accomplishments in this life will never rise above that which you hope for.
God wishes us to have the mastery over ourselves. But He cannot help us without our consent and co-operation. I think you would agree with this. The divine Spirit works through the powers and faculties given to man. Of ourselves, we are not able to bring the purposes and desires and inclinations into harmony with the will of God; but if we are "willing to be made willing," the Saviour will accomplish this for us, "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." 2 Corinthians 10:5.
One of my favourite promises in all of scripture chimes from Peter.
1 Peter 1:1-16 is a wonderful passage is scripture, and then he tops that in his second letter with this...
KJV 2 Peter 1
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
There are many great and wonderful promises throughout scripture such as these. Ephesians contains some wonderful promises also. These I believe are all attainable in this life... In fact, are meant by God to be for this life that we may be witnesses to His power and love. That is what the gospel is all about. The Power of God to change the life. The power of God over and above the flesh of man and the power of the enemy.
The truth is to be planted in the heart. It is to control the mind and regulate the affections. The whole character must be stamped with the divine word of God. We are to read, receive, and believe the word that it may accomplish that for which it is sent. Every jot and tittle of the word of God is to be brought into the daily practice. He who becomes a partaker of the divine nature will be in harmony with God's great standard of righteousness, His holy law. This is the rule by which God measures the actions of men. This will be the test of character in the judgment. We are judged by our actions in this life. The next life is too late for us to be changed.
KJV Ephesians 1
Paul's Prayer for the Ephesians
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

KJV Ephesians 3
Paul's Prayer
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[Mungo]

The Church never sanctioned this - and does NOT do it today, so I caught you in yet another LIE.

NEVER, eh? Uh...
Pope Francis grants for Dublin participants INDULGENCES

(By Mark McCleary BBC News NI 03 June 2018)

Glory to God,
Taken

The Pope was granting indulgences not selling them.
Can't you see the difference.

 

[Marymog]

Just because you may have misapplied some passages does not make them support Purgatory. The whole concept of Purgatory is foreign to Scripture and had to be invented by the Catholic Church. None of those passages speak of Purgatory.

Hmmmmm......since you clearly KNOW how to properly apply passages from Scripture why should we go to anyone else for guidance on the proper application of Scripture?

Mary

 

[Heavenbound]

Please initially respond to these 13 question on the basis of your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach. Subsequently, I will address all 13 questions from a biblical perspective and then you will be encouraged to respond to the cited biblical texts. The questions are relevant to the debate over universal salvation, but this thread is only intended to apply them to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and, more broadly, to the question of ultimate release from Hell. And no, I'm not a Catholic; I'm an Evangelical.

13 PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POST-MORTEM STATE OF THE DAMMED:

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?
(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?
(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?
(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?
(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?
(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?
(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?
(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?
(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?
(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?
(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?
(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?
(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?

1. Good question
2. Yes once saved it can’t change but God will chasten
3. ?
4. No
5. Way too hard to plumb depths
6. Way too hard
7. I haven’t read that in bible
8. If a person rejects Jesus in life they made the decision not Jesus
9. Yes
10. God
11. Man gets to choose
12. No. Permanent
13. Too deep to plumb

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes it is.

Christ's church is made up of men.

2 Tim 3:16
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



And you brought up the topic of your claims of Mary's "sinlessness".
And you brought up the topic of your claims about OSAS.

What is your point? You hijacked the thread?



Nope. First time I mentioned that, based on others historical investigating.



Nope. Asked you if that was a sacred tradition of Catholics.



The Catholic Church IS its members! So now you says a Catholic DID SELL indulgences.

First you lie, then you say I lie, that Catholics did not seek indulgences, and now you say a Catholic DID sell indulgences.

Slither, slither!



NEVER, eh? Uh...

Pope Francis grants for Dublin participants INDULGENCES

(By Mark McCleary BBC News NI 03 June 2018)

Glory to God,
Taken

In post #297 – YOU stated the following:

“What’s your point? Your church STILL sells “indulgences”, as a supposed “sacred Tradition” catholic men thought up.”

This is a big fat LIE.

The Catholic Church does not now – nor has she EVER sold indulgences or ever sanctioned the sale of Indulgences.

Your posts ALWAYS include lies because you don’t know your history – nor do you know the Church you are ranting against. Being ignorant and LOUD is still just ignorant. However – you add dishonesty to your ignorance which is a poisonous and sinful cocktail. I don’t know anybody in my person life that lies as much as YOU.

As for Pope Francis – where does it say that he SOLD Indulgences??
Can you stop LYING for even ONE post??

Pathetic . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You see, the reason I take a different perspective is because of what God promises is in this life. If we believe. For example, you mentioned previously that you considered it impossible to walk entirely according to the will of God, even though we may want to, you believe there will always be some part that is self willed. Now because you believe that, that is what you will get. Your accomplishments in this life will never rise above that which you hope for.
God wishes us to have the mastery over ourselves. But He cannot help us without our consent and co-operation. I think you would agree with this. The divine Spirit works through the powers and faculties given to man. Of ourselves, we are not able to bring the purposes and desires and inclinations into harmony with the will of God; but if we are "willing to be made willing," the Saviour will accomplish this for us, "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." 2 Corinthians 10:5.
One of my favourite promises in all of scripture chimes from Peter.
1 Peter 1:1-16 is a wonderful passage is scripture, and then he tops that in his second letter with this...
KJV 2 Peter 1
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
There are many great and wonderful promises throughout scripture such as these. Ephesians contains some wonderful promises also. These I believe are all attainable in this life... In fact, are meant by God to be for this life that we may be witnesses to His power and love. That is what the gospel is all about. The Power of God to change the life. The power of God over and above the flesh of man and the power of the enemy.
The truth is to be planted in the heart. It is to control the mind and regulate the affections. The whole character must be stamped with the divine word of God. We are to read, receive, and believe the word that it may accomplish that for which it is sent. Every jot and tittle of the word of God is to be brought into the daily practice. He who becomes a partaker of the divine nature will be in harmony with God's great standard of righteousness, His holy law. This is the rule by which God measures the actions of men. This will be the test of character in the judgment. We are judged by our actions in this life. The next life is too late for us to be changed.
KJV Ephesians 1
Paul's Prayer for the Ephesians
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

KJV Ephesians 3
Paul's Prayer
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

I agree with you that God cannot help us without our cooperation. That jas been the Catholic position ALL along. God’s grace can do NOTHING for us without our cooperation – including SAVING us.

However – you still have not addressed the fact that 1 Cor. 2:1015 is talking about “The Day” – Judgement Day. THIS is the crus of our argument about whether this is talking about an even in our lifetime - or AFTER we are dead.

If it is NOT talking about Judgment – then what is “The Day” that is referred to?

 

[BreadOfLife]

2. Yes once saved it can’t change but God will chasten

That's funny - the Bible doesn't teach this.
In fact - the Bible warns truly converted, BORN AGAIN Christians not to fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[Taken]

In post #297 – YOU stated the following:

“What’s your point? Your church STILL sells “indulgences”, as a supposed “sacred Tradition” catholic men thought up.”

This is a big fat LIE.

The Catholic Church does not now – nor has she EVER sold indulgences or ever sanctioned the sale of Indulgences.

Your posts ALWAYS include lies because you don’t know your history – nor do you know the Church you are ranting against. Being ignorant and LOUD is still just ignorant. However – you add dishonesty to your ignorance which is a poisonous and sinful cocktail. I don’t know anybody in my person life that lies as much as YOU.

As for Pope Francis – where does it say that he SOLD Indulgences??
Can you stop LYING for even ONE post??

Pathetic . . .

No need for you to be nasty and snarky, but then you are you and that is your nature.

Since the word "selling" has you all in an uproar, and you being a catholic and more familiar with catholic "indulgences"...

Why not simply explain how a "granted" indulgence becomes applied for a catholic or see if you can give some insight to non-catholics by simply answering yes or no to the following questions.

Are catholics taught;
1) forgiveness of a sin is Given a catholic man by God to the catholic sinner?
2) forgiveness of a sin is Also Given by Priests to the catholic sinner?
3) forgiveness of a sin is Also Given by one catholic man to another man for the other committing a sin against the one catholic man?
4) a catholic must be born again to receive forgiveness of a committed sin?
5) forgiveness of a sin, in any case does not relieve the catholic sinner of punishment for the committed sin?
6) a catholic can become relieved of the "punishment" for a committed sin...
By: performing certain (as prescribed by the catholic church) 'works'?
7) a catholic "in a state of grace" is a catholic ....who believes in God?
....who is forgiven his sins?
8) if a catholic is in a state of grace, and physically dies, he will go to heaven?
9) if a catholic is not in a state of grace, (rejects God) and physically dies, he will go to hell?
10) if a catholic During his physical life-time, did works of charity and/or ever professed to believe in God, while he physically dies (not in a state of grace...for rejecting God, ) he goes to hell...?
11) ...and a catholic in a state of grace (on behalf of the man in hall) can 'pray' to the saints in heaven...?
12) ...and "such" prayers (asking) are for?
...forgiveness of the man in hells disbelief in God?
...forgiveness of the man in hells sins?
...foregoing (relieving) of the man in hells punishment in hell?
13) purgatory is a state of a (physically dead) catholic, who once believed in God, who did charitable works, but physically died, not in a state of grace?
14)prayers offered by a living catholic, (who is in a state of grace,) for another catholic, physically dead, and not in the state of grace, that he (the dead) be;
Given forgiveness?
Given total purification?
Given the state of grace, through total purification?
Given a reprieve from receiving punishment in hell?
Given a place in heaven?
15) all catholics, in a state of grace, (who physically dies)...Must be purified by God, before entering heaven?
16) all catholics, not in a state of grace, (who physically dies) Shall be purified, and then enter heaven?


See if you can help us non-catholics out with simple yes or no answers...you being a expert teacher of catholicism.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The Pope was granting indulgences not selling them.
Can't you see the difference.

Differences can be seen, WHEN one believes something, and explains how they gain or loose according to their beliefs.

What is an indulgence, according to a "catholic"?

A "forgiveness" of a sin?
A "forgiveness" of a "punishment" because of a sin?
Something "different"?

Glory to God,
Taken