The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

they dont have a clue all they know is what some man made doctrine told them

Gee - sort of like Eternal Security, Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.
Kinda like that, huh?

Yikes . . .

 

[brakelite]

The concept of purgatory has one aspect which more than others compels me to reject it.
If one dies in such a state as is claimed as being fit subjects for further cleansing, I ask, why did not that person allow God to cleanse him in this life and therefore qualify for immediate glorification? If said person was not willing to be freed from all his old habits what makes him worthy of salvation at all? Seems to me that in purgatory one has no choice. But once there, sure, who isn't going to decide to fully repent? Yeah God... Have at it.. Burn me up boss and get me outa here.
But would they really be fit subjects for the kingdom of God if there due to

Can you point me to the post where I said that Purgatory takes any amount of "time"?
Who said anything about "one day" - or ANY amount of time??

I don't have time to cite specific post, but I assume that there is a time element because throughout past centuries it had been Catholic teaching and practice to pay... pray... And earn in some way yours and others reduction in time spent there.

 

[Ezra]

Gee - sort of like Eternal Security, Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.
Kinda like that, huh?

Yikes . . .

that is all you can do for your defense ..better ask mary to ask jesus if your wrong

 

[BreadOfLife]

that is all you can do for your defense ..better ask mary to ask jesus if your wrong

Precisely the kind of moronic response I expected from you.
I didn’t think you’d be able to defend your anti-Biblical doctrines – but I just wanted everybody here to see you dodge the issue.

Nice job . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The concept of purgatory has one aspect which more than others compels me to reject it.
If one dies in such a state as is claimed as being fit subjects for further cleansing, I ask, why did not that person allow God to cleanse him in this life and therefore qualify for immediate glorification? If said person was not willing to be freed from all his old habits what makes him worthy of salvation at all? Seems to me that in purgatory one has no choice. But once there, sure, who isn't going to decide to fully repent? Yeah God... Have at it.. Burn me up boss and get me outa here.
But would they really be fit subjects for the kingdom of God if there due to

I don't have time to cite specific post, but I assume that there is a time element because throughout past centuries it had been Catholic teaching and practice to pay... pray... And earn in some way yours and others reduction in time spent there.

Well, this is another misconception about Purgatory or Final Purification.

This process is not for those who are obstinate and refuse to repent. It is for those impurities in our life that we may not have recognized or had the epiphany to realize that they were wrong.

Have you ever had a bad day? Did you spend the entire day repenting – or was the better part of the day spent in frustration and venting? This happens – YES – even to true, born again Christians. Usually, when you’ve had time to reflect, you repent for your less-than-stellar attitude.

Final Purification is where we are conformed 100% to God’s will leaving our own will behind. Anybody who is honest will admit that he tries to live by God’s will – but his own will takes over from time to time.

 

[Taken]

Actually - you're both so wrong.
Purgatory has nothing to do with Hell.

Any sort of intelligent discourse is wasted on you . . .

Actually, I didn't mention purgatory.

If you want to talk about the Catholic VIEW of Purgatory...

In post # 249 you stated:

BOL ~ “The Day” here is referring to Judgement Day.

This is NOT part of the process of sanctification during our life – but a state of purification before entering Heaven.

Scripture teaches the MYSTERY and GOOD NEWS that men During their physical life-time, CAN and some DO become;

Purified - VIA the CLEANSING BY Christ's BLOOD.

And;

Sanctified ~ VIA the Cleansing having occured and the POWER of the Holy Spirit having MADE the man holy.

And;

Justified ~ VIA the Cleansing by Christ's Blood has occured ~ VIA the POWER of the Holy Spirit having made the man holy ~ THUS the man IS ALREADY PREPARED "before his physical death" ...
TO Be bodily RAISED UP IN Glory, IN the Likeness of the Lord.
And IS, a man; in glorified body, restored saved soul and quickened born again spirit...

THAT "man" bodily (does NOT "GO" TO HEAVEN)...(as you indicate)...

BUT DOES...Inherit and Occupy "The Kingdom of God"........ON EARTH.

1 Cor 6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

"IN" the name and "BY" the Spirit of our (believers) God.

So, DO EXPLAIN "your Catholic purgatory"....

"WHOM" does "your" purification apply to?

"WHEN" is "your" purification process TAKE PLACE?

"WHAT" is being "purified"? Body or soul or spirit "OF" man?

"WHERE" does "your" "purification" TAKE PLACE?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Precisely the kind of moronic response I expected from you.
I didn’t think you’d be able to defend your anti-Biblical doctrines – but I just wanted everybody here to see you dodge the issue.

Nice job . . .

Funny how you accuse people of dodging, when you have yet to account for your own accusations, and well observed by people who read your posts.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actually, I didn't mention purgatory.

If you want to talk about the Catholic VIEW of Purgatory...

In post # 249 you stated:



Scripture teaches the MYSTERY and GOOD NEWS that men During their physical life-time, CAN and some DO become;

Purified - VIA the CLEANSING BY Christ's BLOOD.

And;

Sanctified ~ VIA the Cleansing having occured and the POWER of the Holy Spirit having MADE the man holy.

And;

Justified ~ VIA the Cleansing by Christ's Blood has occured ~ VIA the POWER of the Holy Spirit having made the man holy ~ THUS the man IS ALREADY PREPARED "before his physical death" ...
TO Be bodily RAISED UP IN Glory, IN the Likeness of the Lord.
And IS, a man; in glorified body, restored saved soul and quickened born again spirit...

THAT "man" bodily (does NOT "GO" TO HEAVEN)...(as you indicate)...

BUT DOES...Inherit and Occupy "The Kingdom of God"........ON EARTH.

1 Cor 6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

"IN" the name and "BY" the Spirit of our (believers) God.

So, DO EXPLAIN "your Catholic purgatory"....

"WHOM" does "your" purification apply to?

"WHEN" is "your" purification process TAKE PLACE?

"WHAT" is being "purified"? Body or soul or spirit "OF" man?

"WHERE" does "your" "purification" TAKE PLACE?

Glory to God,
Taken

Actually, I agree with you – up to a point.

We ARE being purified on earth and we ARE being sanctified. HOWEVER – nobody is truly righteous.

Aren’t you Protestants the ones who are fond of throwing Rom. 3:10-11 at us Catholics when we talk about Mary’s sinlessess:

Rom 3:10-11
"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

If I had a dime for every time an anti-Catholic threw this verse at me – I’d be a millionaire.

Sooooooo – what happened to THIS belief?? FIRST, you say there is NONE righteous – then you post a verse telling me that you are already righteous.
WHICH is it??

To answer your questions:

Purgatory or Final Purification is for those who are saved. This is NOT a second chance. Everybody who goes through final Purification was already headed for Heaven. Rev.21:27 states that NOTHING imperfect or impure can enter Heaven. Are YOU perfectly pure?

As for WHAT is being purified – it’s not WHAT – but WHO.

The person is being purified before entering Heaven. Our glorified bodies will not join us until the Resurrection of the Dead.

As for where this is taking place – this is a mystery.

It can’t be Heaven because there is suffering (1 Cor. 3:15).

It can’t be Hell because the person is eventually SAVED (1 Cor. 3:15).

YOUR turn . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Funny how you accuse people of dodging, when you have yet to account for your own accusations, and well observed by people who read your posts.

Glory to God,
Taken

And yet, I haven't dodged a single issue or question . . .

 

[Taken]

Gee - sort of like Eternal Security, Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.
Kinda like that, huh?

Yikes . . .

Eternal "security" ? Once a person has OBTAINED their Security of the Indwelling Holy Spirit...it is for all eternity.

Sola Fide? Justification by Faith Alone?
Both ... Faith AND Justification is FROM God Forward to a man. Once a man acknowledges have Received His FAITH, "thereafter" are other things given the man... and you have been on more than one occasion informed of the "list" of things such a man receives...which does include (but not limited to ) Justification.

Sola Scriptura? Is defined by some as being the Sola Scriptura that the Christian scriptures are the sole source of authority for Christian faith and practice.

Whereas it would be more accurate to say, men who HEAR what "Other" men Teach, CAN RELY SOLEY upon Scripture FOR B] VERIFICATION [/B] of what they have "HEARD" other men "say".

Catholics project their "teaching" in a manner, by which "their" leaders have a long history of "deciding" for men that what a Catholic "leader" "teaches" is "Already" Verified by "THEM". And it is all complied in a "handy" book and classes called "Catechism". With this "handy" method, there is "no need" for an "individual" to read and seek out "for himself" "IF" what they are being told and taugh "IS" truly and "Contextually" what is VERIFIED in Scripture.

NOT every person agrees with a Catholics "teaching" method, or Desires to have OTHERS decide Verifications, "FOR THEM".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Eternal "security" ? Once a person has OBTAINED their Security of the Indwelling Holy Spirit...it is for all eternity.

Sola Fide? Justification by Faith Alone?
Both ... Faith AND Justification is FROM God Forward to a man. Once a man acknowledges have Received His FAITH, "thereafter" are other things given the man... and you have been on more than one occasion informed of the "list" of things such a man receives...which does include (but not limited to ) Justification.

Sola Scriptura? Is defined by some as being the Sola Scriptura that the Christian scriptures are the sole source of authority for Christian faith and practice.

Whereas it would be more accurate to say, men who HEAR what "Other" men Teach, CAN RELY SOLEY upon Scripture FOR B] VERIFICATION [/B] of what they have "HEARD" other men "say".

Catholics project their "teaching" in a manner, by which "their" leaders have a long history of "deciding" for men that what a Catholic "leader" "teaches" is "Already" Verified by "THEM". And it is all complied in a "handy" book and classes called "Catechism". With this "handy" method, there is "no need" for an "individual" to read and seek out "for himself" "IF" what they are being told and taugh "IS" truly and "Contextually" what is VERIFIED in Scripture.

NOT every person agrees with a Catholics "teaching" method, or Desires to have OTHERS decide Verifications, "FOR THEM".

Glory to God,
Taken

That’s a completely inaccurate explanation of Catholic teaching. – and a poor defense of both Sola Scriptura and Sola fide.

BOTH of those Protestant doctrines are man-made inventions from the 16th century – and completely devoid of Biblical support. So much so, in fact that Luther had to ADD the word “Alone” to his German translation of Rom. 3:28. The Bible doesn’t hold Faith as the greatest virtue we can possess – but LOVE. Love is something that WE DO – not just something we “FEEL”.

In their zealous hatred for the Church- Luther and the rest of your Protestant Fathers chose to ignore the fact that the very Scriptures they held as our “sole Authority” gave EQUAL parity to Sacred Tradition.

Scripture doesn’t hold that Scripture is our “sole Authority” either. In fact, Scripture itself agrees – and quite explicitly - that Christ’s CHURCH is our final Authority on earth (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

BOTH of these Protestant Pillars came about as a result of the resentment toward the Church – but NOT from any Biblical evidence.

Eternal Security (OSAS) was invented by Luther because of his scrupulosity and nothing more. He never felt forgiven so he invented this doctrine to make sure he’d get to Heaven. Scripture itself rejects this false teaching (Matt. 7:19-23, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2, Pet. 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

 

[Taken]

– what happened to THIS belief?? FIRST, you say there is NONE righteous – then you post a verse telling me that you are already righteous.
WHICH is it??

Romans 3
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15] Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16] Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17] And the way of peace have they not known:
[18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.


[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

IN CONTEXT; The Scripture was speaking to men ALIVE in their BODY. Men who were UNDER the LAW, and may have thought themselves "righteous" by the "following of the Laws pertaining to WORKS". As well speaks to men who did not necessarily BELIEVE in God, but may have thought themselves "GOOD", according to their "own behaviors".

IN CONTEXT; A NEW teaching out of the mouth of Jesus the Christ, revealed, a Covenant, ASIDE from "UNDER the LAW", "ASIDE from WORKS"....whereby GOD and the GRACE of God THROUGH the BLOOD of Jesus Offered to men, HIS sanctification,, and HIS justification and HIS accounting of Righteousness, forward to men WHO "accepted" His Offering of Jesus' BLOOD for their remission of sin.

Point being:
A man may have been UNDER the LAW (or not).
A man UNDER the LAW can "remain" UNDER the LAW, or not.
A man UNDER the LAW, "AND" men NOT UNDER the LAW...were Offered a NEW Covenant, AND could ACCEPT that Covenant...or NOT.
Acceptance, 'CHANGES" what once "APPLIED" to a man, to having a NEW set of TRUTHS that "thereafter" APPLY to the man.

Which is it?

It is ALWAYS according to Gods WORD.
For those WHO hear and reject Jesus "the Christ"... THEY can not be "according" to Gods WORD, "accepted" and "accounted" Righteous.
And Those WHO Hear and Accept Jesus "the Christ"...THEY ARE "according" to Gods WORD, "accepted" and "accounted" Righteous.

In brief, certain things that APPLY to a man AT one time, CAN become MOOT, and no longer APPLY to a man.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

To answer your questions:

Purgatory or Final Purification is for those who are saved. This is NOT a second chance. Everybody who goes through final Purification was already headed for Heaven. Rev.21:27 states that NOTHING imperfect or impure can enter Heaven. Are YOU perfectly pure?

As for WHAT is being purified – it’s not WHAT – but WHO.

The person is being purified before entering Heaven. Our glorified bodies will not join us until the Resurrection of the Dead.

As for where this is taking place – this is a mystery.

It can’t be Heaven because there is suffering (1 Cor. 3:15).

It can’t be Hell because the person is eventually SAVED (1 Cor. 3:15).

YOUR turn . . .

Are YOU perfectly pure?

My soul is perfectly restored, saved.
My spirit is perfectly quickened, born again, by the perfect Seed of God.

My body is ACCOUNTED spiritually dead (crucified with Christ)...
Already;
Washed in Jesus Blood,
Already;
Sanctified,
Already;
Kept With Christ,
Already "JUSTIFIED" to be "RAISED IN GLORY".

God has ALREADY "Prepared", TO HIS satisfaction and HIS requirements MY ENTIRE, soul, spirit, & body...IS "Justified" to be Raised in Glory, on a day, unbeknownst to me.

The day, (unknown to me), Does not matter...
Precisely Because the WHOLE of me (body, soul & spirit) IS already prepared.

It does not matter, IF that day comes when my Body has physically died, or my Body is phsically alive....there is no more required of me and no more necessary "purification" for God to do ... but to Raise my Body up IN a glorified Body, up to the Lord (in the clouds), in a glorified body, in the LIKENESS as the Lords "glorified body".

The Lord came to earth, to human men, in the LIKENESS as an earthly man, without BECOMING a HUMAN man...
and I shall rise up in the air, to the Lord, in the LIKENESS as the Lord, without BECOMING the Lord.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ezra]

Precisely the kind of moronic response I expected from you.
I didn’t think you’d be able to defend your anti-Biblical doctrines – but I just wanted everybody here to see you dodge the issue.

Nice job . . .

moronic response.. you keep claiming i have dodged the issue...i have hit you head on with scripture YOU REJECT i will say this is a prime example of a carnal mind--------->

at us Catholics when we talk about Mary’s sinlessess:

that is just about as good as mary taking your prayer to Jesus . mary was not sinless on earth. she was a chosen vessel , only person was ever sinless that is Christ.. get your head out of catholic teaching and read the bible . actually if you will read closely what taken has to post you might learn something ! note
(MIGHT ) SEE I HAVE A KNOW SO SALVATION i dont need purgatory as a security blanket .i have grace and faith ,,you have dead works

 

[Taken]

As for WHAT is being purified – it’s not WHAT – but WHO.

I would disagree.

Each "part" of man;
the flesh natural body,
the spiritual soul,
and
the natural spirit...
MUST be MADE Sanctified, BEFORE, it can be JUSTIFIED to BECOME MADE "in Christ's" LIKENESS.

The person is being purified before entering Heaven.

Again, I agree and disagree with you.

WHOLE Purification before "entering" the Lords Kingdom (on Earth) BUT not rising UP
NOT a body rising up to Heaven.

A Person, is the WHOLE of a man; body, soul and spirit. Bodies DO NOT GO "UP" to Heaven. God/Christ's Kingdom will BE manifested ON Earth, AFTER the great tribulation, THE DIVISION that is PRESENT, "between" Heaven and Earth, NOW, (ie the firmament, SHALL BE OPENED, and...

We are told ahead of time...the Kingdom of God is at hand...(near to be manifested).

We are told a new heaven and new earth will be manifested.

We are told as it is in heaven so shall it be on earth.

Matt 6
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

More precisely, WE do not bodily leave the earth and go to heaven...Heaven will come to Earth...and the Earth will be occupied by "ONLY" WHOLE men, Made WHOLE, body, soul & spirit.

Our glorified bodies will not join us until the Resurrection of the Dead.

There are two Distinct "Resurrections".
The two Resurrections pertain to two Distinct "kind" of people...being...
WITH God or WITHOUT/AGAINST God.

Nothing informs us, that ALL that are "WITH" God are Resurrected "at the same time".

We already have Scriptural knowledge of "men being dead, and then Resurrected, and of course Jesus".

The second Resurrection does seem to indicate "they" "WITHOUT/AGAINST" God are all Resurrected together to participate in their Judgement.

MY Body is already Justified to be Raised Up...either out of the grave (if physically dead)....or simply raised up off the earth...either way...raised up (GLORIFIED) to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Point being, there is no, uh, hold on a minute, that I require a "so called" final "purification" before my soul, spirit, or body is resurrected.

I am wholly prepared, for My Redeemer to Redeem the whole of me. He shall descend from heaven to the clouds and call me UP to Him. I shall Hear Him and respond.

As for where this is taking place – this is a mystery.

I don't believe there is a mystery, but rather a misunderstanding, of what APPLIES to WHOM and why.

It can’t be Heaven because there is suffering (1 Cor. 3:15).

Correct.

HOWEVER, there SHALL be Great Tribulation, and DURING THAT TIME, "men' ON the Earth, will have their LAST opportunity to MAKE their "elections" (choices) TO stand WITH the Lord, or reject Him and BE AGAINST Him.

Some Gentiles, may elect to Stand With the Lord or not.
It is the "bulk" of the Jews, (who do not NOW accept Jesus, as their Christ Messiah), WHO WILL, TURN to Belief IN Jesus as their Christ Messiah, and BE COME, "soul saved", "spirit quickened", and Have to suffer BODILY DEATH....(where as now, a man in Christ now, was Crucified with Christ, already having satisfied the one death requirement, should the Lord descend to the clouds and call UP to Him, "His Church", such a physically living man, would be risen up in a glorified body to meet the Lord in the air.). The BULK of Jews have NOT been "crucified with Christ", thus will SUFFER Bodily death, during the Great Tribulation, even After having become soul saved, and spirit quickened.

THEIR bodies will be raised UP in Glory, as per the First Resurrection (that is for those WITH God).

Point being TWO distinct Resurrections, does not mean, TWO distinct "time-frames".

It can’t be Hell because the person is eventually SAVED (1 Cor. 3:15).

I can't recall the verse right now, but I believe, bodies of unsaved souls, are bodies that are raised up from their graves TO HELL...definitely not Heaven...nor do I believe they are raised to the "surface of the Earth", but rather are Joined with their unsaved souls IN Hell, and THERE are before the JUDGE, who opens the book of life, and the evidence shows, their name does not appear (because it was blotted out) and another book is opened (the Lamb's book of Life) and their name does not appear there (because they were never spiritually quickened (born again), thus their name was never ENTERED into That book)

THOSE men, shall SEE the Lord (Judge) and then BELIEVE and Confess Belief and BOW to the Lord, BUT shall not be saved. Life from their soul, shall return to God, and their body and soul...thrown into the eternal pit of fire.
A continual "purification" ? Perhaps, because FIRE does Purify...Yet they have no escape to thereafter be forgiven, saved, quickened, justified, or redeemed. We are told, there will be no memory of them.

Perhaps your "Purgatory" is more so pertaining to Jews. Jews have heard of Jesus for 2,000 + years, but for the most part...
Accept God, Accept the Word of God...but reject Jesus IS the Word of God and Gods Christ Messiah.
THEY shall have Jewish Teachers come to them, DURING the Great Tribulation. THEY (many), Shall accept Jesus as their Christ Messiah....
THEY will not ALL be killed at once.
However as they are Accepting (and becoming saved) AND are KILLED....their SAVED souls....NEITHER go to Hell....NOR go to Heaven, (one by one).

THeir souls are (according to Scriptural phrasing) ARE kept "under the alter", signifying a SAFE Place....UNTIL ALL "during the Great Tribulation who have come to being Made "IN" Christ are KILLED (or die naturally), and THEN together "THEIR SOULS" (and spirits), RISE UP to Heaven.

Offhand I find no indication that "THEIR" BODIES are Raised UP IN Glory, (being included in a part of the First Resurrection), until after the 1,000 year reign.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

And yet, I haven't dodged a single issue or question . . .

Actually you do.

The SCENARIO goes like this:

I make a comment...

You REWORD my comment into YOUR WORDS.

You THEN explain what YOUR WORDS mean.

You THEN point to a Negative SCRIPTURE that "APPLIES" to what "YOU" have said...
AND CLAIM, it APPLIES to me.

Dude, there is a QUOTE feature, to QUOTE exactly what a person says for themselves.

If YOU do not know what they mean...ASK THEM what THEY mean.

No one is SUBJECT TO any Negative Scripture, based on what you have SAID FOR THEM, or your explanation of YOUR Words.

It is not a big secret I disagree with you on multiple levels...which should be a real good indication, you are not qualified to SPEAK FOR Me, or anyone else that you should know you are in constant disagreement with.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

That’s a completely inaccurate explanation of Catholic teaching. – and a poor defense of both Sola Scriptura and Sola fide.

So?

Who cares if that is an Inaccurate explanation of Catholic teaching....?

I am not a catholic, nor claimed I was teaching a Catholic concept.

Plain and simple, I stated my opinion.

Scripture is clear that the written word is:...

2 Time 3:
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Scripture is clear that tthrough Faith one is saved, and that FAITH is a gift from God.

Eph 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

IF you as a Catholic, teach more is Required to KNOW or RECEIVE....So?

BOTH of those Protestant doctrines are man-made inventions from the 16th century – and completely devoid of Biblical support.

Oh good grief, devoid of Biblical support?
Laughable when you make such ridiculous claims.

So much so, in fact that Luther had to ADD the word “Alone” to his German translation of Rom. 3:28. The Bible doesn’t hold Faith as the greatest virtue we can possess – but LOVE. Love is something that WE DO – not just something we “FEEL”.

I am well aware of what LOVE MEANS, and ALSO well AWARE, having the Ability to EXPRESS LOVE (by DOING), IS AFTER a man has GAINED the Gift of Faith.

So while you may believe LOVE is the greatest Virtue, I believe that Virtue can NOT be accomplished WITHOUT the gift of FAITH From God.

In my own observance; You sling HATE around more than anyone else on this Form.
Ofcourse you exclude yourself, and attempt to project it on many others...even those who have been dead for centuries!

It is obvious you can not hold your tongue without LASHING OUT with your accusations.

IF you had an incling of what Scripture teaches, YOU WOULD KNOW, The written word is about opportunity for a man to GAIN Knowledge. When the man Trusts to Believe the written (or spoken) Knowledge the man GAINS Wisdom. FAITH is a gift forwarded FROM God to the man who pursues such things. And the Ability for one man to DO WELL in LOVING an. enemy, is by and through the POWER of God WITHIN a man, WHO has FIRST BECOME MADE FAITHFUL to God ONLY or (in Luther's words God Alone).

What makes you think I give a hoot about what you think of Luther? Haven't the Catholics spent the last umpteen centuries bashing Luther, that you think I have not before heard the Catholic rhetoric and Hatred against Luther?

In their zealous hatred for the Church-

"THE" Church? "THE" Church is not an exclusive church called "the Catholic Church".
"THE" Church in Scripture IS Christ's Church, NOT built of mens hands and stone and mortar.

Luther was a Cathoic Priest. Luther never Stood Against Christ's Church....Luther Challenged Teaching of Catholics, (particularly indulgences wanting them (in the higher positions within the Catholic church) to Address his challenges and questions about the Catholic Church "SELLING" of indulgences.

First Luther was summoned to explain his challenges, then the Catholic church excommunicated Luther and declared him a heretic, in hopes to sway people away from considering his challenges, the same as the Catholic church had done against others who challenged their unBiblical teaching and practices, (and SOME even being killed for objecting to the Catholic churches unBiblical teaching and practices).

But then LATER, the Catholic church itself, "supposedly" reformed its own unBiblical teaching and practices....yet obviously, it didn't stop the Hatred Against Luther.

Luther and the rest of your Protestant Fathers chose to ignore the fact that the very Scriptures they held as our “sole Authority” gave EQUAL parity to Sacred Tradition.

What's your point? Your Catholic church STILL sells "indulgences", as a supposed "sacred Tradition" catholic men thought up?

Scripture doesn’t hold that Scripture is our “sole Authority” either.

Scripture is quite clear, the soul Authority is Gods Word.

Matt 28:18
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

In fact, Scripture itself agrees – and quite explicitly - that Christ’s CHURCH is our final Authority on earth (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

In fact Scripture teaches, God gave authority and power to Saten, (to do Gods WILL) and Jesus gave and gives authority and power to men (to do Jesus' WILL).

You teach a concept that implies the Disciples were given carte blanch authority and power.
They weren't. They didn't replace Jesus, they SERVED HIM, according to His WILL, His WAY, His WORD.

BOTH

of these Protestant Pillars came about as a result of the resentment toward the Church – but NOT from any Biblical evidence.

Oh good grief, stop your whinning. The Church is Christ's Church. The Catholics are not exclusive members. Catholics for the most part are Taught to trust to believe what the Catholic church "teaches" them....Personally, I listen to other men, hear what they say, and trust to believe what Scripture Verifies. If a church's "tradition" is hokey, not supported by Scripture, I do not accept it.

Catholics have all kinds of "traditions", I do not find as Scriptural or necessary or to my liking....so what? I obviously have the option to NOT include myself in such rituals....just as you have the option to not include yourself in such rituals of other churches. It neither makes you right or me wrong, or visa versa...
But because you are so steeped in your catholic teaching and traditions you lash out at anyone who has no interest or agreement with you or what you choose to do.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

.

Eternal Security (OSAS) was invented by Luther

Awesome. Too bad the catholic church can not take credit for that teaching and understanding.

because

That teaching is spot on Scriptural.

] of his scrupulosity and nothing more. He never felt forgiven so he invented this doctrine to make sure he’d get to Heaven.

Forgiven by who? The Catholic church? Luther was all about doing his best to follow the Lord according to the Lord's direction. The Catholic church was put off because Luther challenged the Catholic church for teaching people they could buy their way into Heaven.

Scripture

itself rejects this false teaching (Matt. 7:19-23, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2, Pet. 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

Scripture itself teaches;

Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE and for all.

[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

[12] But this man, after he had offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOR EVER , sat down on the right hand of God;

[14] For by ONE offering he hath perfected FOR EVER them that are sanctified.

Once and Forever is plain language in Scripture itself.

You have been informed on several occasions and shown verifying Scriptures on several occasions...THAT

Jesus came to earth and Offered His Body Once and for ALL. And ANY MAN WHO HEARTFULLY accepts Jesus' OFFER, IS ONCE and FOREVER Sanctified, Saved, and Born Again.

And thereafter FOREVER the Spirit of God will Remain with such a man.

Matt 28:
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You have consistently revealed you do not comprehend the DIFFERENCE between "hearing, learning, receiving small measures of faith from God, following along, claiming belief...............AND THEN rejecting the Lord.........

AND.... having heard, learned, received measures of faith from God, followed along, claimed belief............AND COMMITTED your belief "FROM YOUR HEARTS THOUGHTS".... TO THE Lord.

Many people .... hear, learn, receive measures of faith from God, follow along, claim belief, and may even believe ... until their MIND is convinced by other influences....that their beliefs are NOT TRUE....and they Deflect from Belief.

THEY NEVER "HEARTFULLY" Committed a belief in God to God...."THEY" gave "MINDFUL" lip service..and FELL FROM FAITH.
THEY FELL from "MINDFULLY Believing.
THEY FELL from God giving them MEASURES of FAITH.

Scripture clearly TEACHES, the Carnal Mind IS AGAINST God...

Scripture clearly TEACHES, it is the HEARTS thoughts that MAKE a declaration of BELIEF IN GOD....(and BECOME sanctified, saved, born again, ONCE and FOREVER).....NOT by a confession from the mans MIND.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

Well, this is another misconception about Purgatory or Final Purification.

This process is not for those who are obstinate and refuse to repent. It is for those impurities in our life that we may not have recognized or had the epiphany to realize that they were wrong.

Have you ever had a bad day? Did you spend the entire day repenting – or was the better part of the day spent in frustration and venting? This happens – YES – even to true, born again Christians. Usually, when you’ve had time to reflect, you repent for your less-than-stellar attitude.

Final Purification is where we are conformed 100% to God’s will leaving our own will behind. Anybody who is honest will admit that he tries to live by God’s will – but his own will takes over from time to time.

Yeah, okay, I get that. Although we differ as to when this takes place... You think it's after we die...I think that time is now.
But in Catholic theology, how long does this purifying take? Is it a process or is it in one day on the day of judgement?

 

[Taken]

Yeah, okay, I get that. Although we differ as to when this takes place... You think it's after we die...I think that time is now.
But in Catholic theology, how long does this purifying take? Is it a process or is it in one day on the day of judgement?

BOL gives a scenario of a man venting and perhaps realizing he was "wrong".

BOL neglects to mention, if the man is venting and perhaps realizing he was "wrong" pertaining to ANOTHER man ... or simply a situation that is frustrating.

Situations can be frustrating on a regular basis.
AND men can find themselves "WRONG" on numerous occasions, AFTER be wrongly accusatory to other men.

Scripture itself addresses BEHAVIOR "BeTWeEN" men.

BOL is parroting Catholic teaching, to "REPENT to God", for one mans poor behavior TOWARD another man.

Scripture teaches, for a man who has had poor behavior TOWARD another man...TO seek the other man FOR FORGIVENESS...
"Not God".

God has already VERIFIED, He forgives men of their Trespasses (against other men)...WHEN the man himself Forgives men of Trespasses men did against them.

Scripture already reveals, IT is a mans body, soul & spirit, that has BETWEEN God and A man BEEN "MADE WHOLE" (through Grace and Christ)... THAT does not CHANGE or become UNDONE...by or through behaviors BeTWeeN men.

ANYTHING, LEFT "unforgiven" because of BEHAVIOR "between men"...simply becomes a loss of rewards the man "could have received".

THINGS...a SAVED and BORN AGAIN man...neglects TO DO...results in a loss of reward the man "could have received".

Once a man "IS" SAVED and BORN AGAIN...
He IS Justified to be bodily, Raised in Glory....

NOTHING "undoes" Gods handiworks within such a Saved and Born Again man.

NOtHING "more" is Necessary FOR God to "PURIFY"... Christ's BLOOD paid the PRICE required for a Saved and Born Again man.

Men are naturally BORN Against BELIEVING IN God...When a man Begins to Believe, he is on the right track TOWARD Righteousness.
When a man HEARTFULLY commits his belief and life TO THE Lord God...It is the Lord God WHO "Changes" the man ONCE and FOREVER.

THAT ^ is precisely a ONCE and FOREVER Spiritual relationship between ONE man and ONE Lord God Almighty, that WILL NeVeR Change....regardless of relationships between men.

Glory to God,
Taken