ROMANS 4:6 IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

[Episkopos]

First you said that God's righteousness is not imputed to us...then you say that we have God's righteousness...I believe that you just contradicted yourself.

More reading skill issues.

You seem unable to read what is written. You are adding in your own propaganda to what I'm saying. You can't understand the difference between God's righteousness and God imputing righteousness to another...not his own...but reckoning their own righteousness to themselves.

You will not understand the bible until you learn to read better than that.

 

[Episkopos]

God is therefore the God of the impossible...for righteousness is indeed imputed to us:

Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,



First you said that God's righteousness is not imputed to us...then you say that we have God's righteousness...I believe that you just contradicted yourself.



According to Romans 5:17 and context, God's righteousness is a free gift unto us. Therefore, if we receive it as a gift, it now belongs to us.



Again you contradict yourself.



We are indeed declared righteous even when we are ungodly...Romans 4:5...this does not mean that God leaves us in the state of being ungodly. He calls forth righteousness within us, when it is not, as though it is (Romans 4:17) and in doing so He creates a new reality of righteousness within us.



Christ in us is the hope of glory...this does not change the fact that He is Christ in us...and in that it is indeed a done deal.



In Him we live and move and have our being. Jesus is God; we cannot even lift a shovel without Him; for in Him all things consist.



The new nature within us means that we are not obligated to commit sin...

Rom 8:12, Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

We are also obligated to not commit sin by virtue of the same verse.



No; for we are declared righteous because of our faith: and we are not righteous because of what we do; rather we do righteousness because of who we are by faith. It is that we do righteousness because we are righteous (through faith); not that we are righteous because we do righteousness.



I disagree.

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.



Those who live righteously as Jesus did are not accepted on their own merit; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The adverb "have" applies to both "sinned" and "come short" (putting them both in past tense). But the point being that there are sins in our past that must be forgiven; which can never be forgiven because of our own merit.

But if we translate from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Christ; and are no longer children of the devil (committers of sin, 1 John 3:8): then it is merely speaking of the fact that we have been born of God; not that we enter in based on our own merit: but that we are made worthy (Revelation 3:4) and holy (Hebrews 3:1, Psalms 86:2) through being filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 3:19-20, 1 Corinthians 6:17); being made one flesh with Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32) in whom there is no sin (1 John 3:5).

We stand in the righteousness of Christ as it is imputed (and imparted) to us.

Having been forgiven, we have begun a life of abiding in Christ.

But our salvation does not rest in our abiding per se (for abiding is the result of having been saved; and of course without it you will be cast forth as a withered branch and be burned in the fire); but in the fact that we have been forgiven through the blood of Christ.

I'm afraid it is impossible for me to write to you...until you learn to read properly.

As an English lesson for you...see if you can understand this...

The policeman imputed the crime to the criminal....but the policeman never imputes his own crime unto a criminal.

Likewise God imputes righteousness to the righteous...but He never imputes HIS OWN righteousness to a person.

The religious error is that you don't understand what imputing is or what righteousness is.

God gifts us with His righteousness on us...(not in us) when we enter into Christ. But we will be judged separately from that. We will be judged by our OWN righteousness with God and His righteousness judging us. God is not going to judge Himself on judgment day. But He is going to judge us.

If God imputed His righteousness to us then we would also receive worship from people just like Him.

But His righteousness is always separate from us. It never gets imputed to us...because it is His.

 

[FHII]

Folks,. Romans 4 is pretty plain. It needs no explanation because IT IS an explanation. All of the book of Romans is that way.

Peter said Paul was hard to understand, but Paul said he used great plainless of speech. Paul is hard to understand only because his simple concept of Grace is hard to accept by some people. Folks that can't understand Grace have a hard time with Paul.

But no... Romans 4 needs no intreptation. It means exactly what it says.

 

[farouk]

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

This is indeed a holy mystery; and I was thinking recently also about the cup which the Lord Jesus willingly drank; John 18.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Our transgressions are forgiven and our sins are covered. God does not input sin. However much sin abounds in us, Grace does much more abound.

Okay, I can do that; no problem.

2 Peter 1:9 verifies we are only cleansed of our past sins. You have read scripture out of context of the next chapters in Romans to imply we can sin all we want and God will not impute sin to us. If we commit sin, oh yes He will. Read Romans 6. What you are believing is exactly what was happening in the first century that Jude said turns the grace of God into licentiousness. It is Satan that wants you to sin so you'll be a slave to him. Jesus wants to take away your desire to sin altogether so you will actually be righteous. That is what being born is all about - changing our carnal nature to a higher nature called the divine nature. (Also in 2 Peter 1)

Doctrines of demons are tantalizing, and you are wanting to believe it because it is so easy to have you cake and eat it too. And even though that perverted doctrine was found in the 1st century, it rose its ugly head again in the Reformation by Luther and Calvin. That is where you are getting your doctrine. But do you want to hear what Jesus had to say about that church age of the Reformation called Sardis? He said, "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead."

That is what Satan does when he creates doctrines of demons. John 10:10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."

But not everyone out of the Reformation held to these false doctrines. There were also reformers of the Reformation, that believed in the original godly principals of the 1st century and Revelation 3 also acknowledges them. They were Jacob Arminius and John Wesley.

Revelation 3:4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

 

[farouk]

Okay, I can do that; no problem.

2 Peter 1:9 verifies we are only cleansed of our past sins. You have read scripture out of context of the next chapters in Romans to imply we can sin all we want and God will not impute sin to us. If we commit sin, oh yes He will. Read Romans 6. What you are believing is exactly what was happening in the first century that Jude said turns the grace of God into licentiousness. It is Satan that wants you to sin so you'll be a slave to him. Jesus wants to take away your desire to sin altogether so you will actually be righteous. That is what being born is all about - changing our carnal nature to a higher nature called the divine nature. (Also in 2 Peter 1)

Doctrines of demons are tantalizing, and you are wanting to believe it because it is so easy to have you cake and eat it too. And even though that perverted doctrine was found in the 1st century, it rose its ugly head again in the Reformation by Luther and Calvin. That is where you are getting your doctrine. But do you want to hear what Jesus had to say about that church age of the Reformation called Sardis? He said, "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead."

That is what Satan does when he creates doctrines of demons. John 10:10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."

But not everyone out of the Reformation held to these false doctrines. There were also reformers of the Reformation, that believed in the original godly principals of the 1st century and Revelation 3 also acknowledges them. They were Jacob Arminius and John Wesley.

Revelation 3:4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

I don't see that Biblical salvation involves being conditionally saved, then lost, then conditionally saved again, then lost...over and over...

 

[CharismaticLady]

I don't see that Biblical salvation involves being conditionally saved, then lost, then conditionally saved again, then lost...over and over...

Have you ever received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? If you have, you'll never forget the experience. It is life changing and you receive power over previous sinful desires. Has that ever happened to you? I was in church for 30 years BEFORE being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is not by faith, but by experience. In other words, you can't just read about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and claim it as yours by faith. No, you actually have to repent and acknowledge that your carnal nature makes you weak to temptations and cry out to God that you want to serve Him but you can't be strong. That humility and honesty is when Jesus gives you His sinless Spirit to empower you to not have the same desires that tempted you before. You are a new creature.

 

[farouk]

Have you ever received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? If you have, you'll never forget the experience. It is life changing and you receive power over previous sinful desires. Has that ever happened to you? I was in church for 30 years BEFORE being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is not by faith, but by experience. In other words, you can't just read about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and claim it as yours by faith. No, you actually have to repent and acknowledge that your carnal nature makes you weak to temptations and cry out to God that you want to serve Him but you can't be strong. That humility and honesty is when Jesus gives you His sinless Spirit to empower you to not have the same desires that tempted you before. You are a new creature.

John chapter 3; the new birth, as taught by the Lord Jesus.

 

[CharismaticLady]

John chapter 3; the new birth, as taught by the Lord Jesus.

What are you saying? That you read about it, or experienced it?

 

[farouk]

What are you saying? That you read about it, or experienced it?

That the baptism of the Spirit - Biblically understood - occurs at the new birth, confirmed also in Romans 8.9, which says: 'If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His;.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That the baptism of the Spirit - Biblically understood - occurs at the new birth, confirmed also in Romans 8.9, which says: 'If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His;.

Exactly. I was going to church for 30 years UNSAVED.

 

[farouk]

Exactly. I was going to church for 30 years UNSAVED.

Shows how close we need to stick to what the Scriptures really say...

 

[CharismaticLady]

Shows how close we need to stick to what the Scriptures really say...

Well, when I repented and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it certainly was a sobering realization. One day I have no power over sin, truly repent for the first time in all my 30 years, am finally saved, and from then on willful sinning is abhorrent to me. It was like going from a lion and a taste for blood and meat, to being a lamb and all I want is grass. That is how drastic the change is. The key is integrity of heart when we repent. It is not just from one sin, but our whole nature that we realize we can't control. Out motive is also key. It is like some who don't want to give up their sins so choose a doctrine of demons that claims you don't have to give up your sin, just believe that Jesus will save you and take you to heaven. That's all - no changed life, just change in where you go after this world. But that's a false doctrine that makes Satan jump up and down, because he knows he still owns you.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 1:4, 5-6
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

The doctrine of demons claims Jesus covers our sin; that means it is still there, so the sin is not imputed to us. False. Just keep reading through the 6th chapter of Romans and the introduction of the Spirit is in chapter 8. Chapters 1-7 is about the law and being under the law, and no longer being under the law. That doesn't mean lawlessness. That means the New Covenant through Christ changes the law to be the law of the SPIRIT of life in Christ, that frees us from the law of sin and death (The Old Testament laws). The LAW could make no man holy, due to the carnal nature still intact. Jesus changes our nature making it born again of the Spirit, so we are no longer in the flesh (carnal nature) but in the Spirit, if we have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Anyone who hasn't, doesn't belong to Christ. It is only the Spirit in us that can empower us to not sin. The Spirit is the seed of the Father.

1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Many take verses out of context, and chapters out of context in Romans. It is a progressive teaching. Don't make a doctrine out of the middle of the teaching, which is what the problem is with Calvinism.

Chapter 3: Justification by faith not law.

Chapter 4: Sin no longer imputed (but doesn't yet say why)

Chapter 5: Law vs. Grace

Chapter 6:
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not!How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Chapter 7. The frustration of those trying to keep the law through their own works, but having a carnal nature making it a struggle. Under the LAW

Chapter 8.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ, has freed me from the law of sin and death of chapter 7. Under the law of the SPIRIT

cc: @FHII

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The new nature (ingrained through the new birth in Christ) in us makes us WANT to do what is right...but not the power to do so.

Yes!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes!

It's sort of like...when Jesus gave sight to a group of men. That story has so much in it!! They all rejoiced and went rushing off. Only one returned.

And it's also like the man He gave sight to in 2 stages.

 

[justbyfaith]

You can't understand the difference between God's righteousness and God imputing righteousness to another...not his own...but reckoning their own righteousness to themselves.

filthy rags.

As an English lesson for you...see if you can understand this...

The policeman imputed the crime to the criminal....but the policeman never imputes his own crime unto a criminal.

It is human nature that we impute our own sins on other people; we have the tendency to judge others more harshly over the sins that we ourselves commit.

But His righteousness is always separate from us. It never gets imputed to us...because it is His.

He gives it to us (Romans 5:15-19, Ephesians 2:8-9)...therefore it is ours. That it was His before it was ours means that it is fine linen, clean and white (Revelation 19:8).

2 Peter 1:9 verifies we are only cleansed of our past sins.

Twenty minutes from now, every sin that I commit in the next twenty minutes will be past sins.

 

[The wind]

Righteousness is referring to godliness which is by faith. This is the work of God. And true Faith starts with the fear of Christ. And by this faith you are baptized into the body of Christ and being raised with him through baptism you are born from the dead. and so it is fulfilled concerning the resurrection of Christ: this day have I begotten thee. This is what it means to be born again. but if the person baptizing is not baptizing in the name of Jesus and if he doesn't have the spirit of God then your baptism is nothing and you are yet in the old man.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

No...that's not correct. His righteousness is ON us when we enter INTO Christ. Christ in us is a hope...not a done deal.

You don't understand what the biblical concept of hope means to believers, or even what hope means in NT theology.

By the way salvation IS a done deal, and in a nutshell that is what hope means. You're not as sound theologically as you've self-proclaimed.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That is not true.

Our transgressions are forgiven and our sins are covered. God does not input sin. However much sin abounds in us, Grace does much more abound.

Romans 3:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. (NKJV)

I like how the Living Bible puts it for clarity:

31 Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need obey God’s laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Righteousness is referring to godliness which is by faith. This is the work of God. And true Faith starts with the fear of Christ. And by this faith you are baptized into the body of Christ and being raised with him through baptism you are born from the dead. and so it is fulfilled concerning the resurrection of Christ: this day have I begotten thee. This is what it means to be born again. but if the person baptizing is not baptizing in the name of Jesus and if he doesn't have the spirit of God then your baptism is nothing and you are yet in the old man.

What other water baptism is there in the New Testament?