ROMANS 4:6 IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

[Enoch111]

Here is the error. It is impossible that God's righteousness be imputed to us. His righteousness comes only from God and only He owns that righteousness. Only God is as righteous as God.

You are continuing to CONTRADICT God. That is already a sin.

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[FHII]

Romans 3:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. (NKJV)

I like how the Living Bible puts it for clarity:

31 Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need obey God’s laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.

Did you like how the living Bible quotes verse 28 as much?

28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Or how about verse 21?

21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago

You should read the whole chapter for clarity

 

[CharismaticLady]

Did you like how the living Bible quotes verse 28 as much?

28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Or how about verse 21?

21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago

You should read the whole chapter for clarity

Yes, that is the Old Covenant law. Read the Sermon on the Mount. That is where Jesus takes the old laws, and makes them more powerful for the New Covenant. But not kept through our carnal nature as the old, but with the divine nature that we are reborn with.

 

[FHII]

Yes, that is the Old Covenant law. Read the Sermon on the Mount. That is where Jesus takes the old laws, and makes them more powerful for the New Covenant. But not kept through our carnal nature as the old, but with the divine nature that we are reborn with.

He didn't make them more powerful for the new covenant, he made them more Impossible to keep. Besides, they aren't to be kept at all. They were done away with.

We please God by faith, not by keeping the law carnally.

 

[CharismaticLady]

He didn't make them more powerful for the new covenant, he made them more Impossible to keep. Besides, they aren't to be kept at all. They were done away with.

We please God by faith, not by keeping the law carnally.

The New Covenant laws were done away with, or the Old Covenant laws?

You are right, we cannot keep ANY laws carnally. We must be born again with a new nature of the Spirit, or we don't even belong to Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

We please God by faith, not by keeping the law carnally.

By faith we receive the Spirit (Galatians 3:14) by whom the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5).

Through this love, we are able to keep some of those impossible commandments in the Sermon on the Mount; such as love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

If we couldn't live the Christian life in the power of the Spirit, I believe that Christianity would have ceased to be a religion centuries ago.

It would have been reduced to a religion of hypocrisy in people's minds.

Thankfully, there are people who actually live out the words of God.

Hypocrites are not true Christians: those who are true actually live the Christian life even as Jesus commanded.

 

[FHII]

The New Covenant laws were done away with, or the Old Covenant laws?

Really? Do you have to ask? When we speak of the law being done away with or us not being under the law, which do you think we are referring to?


I actually believe I know why you are asking. Let me make things clear: the Law of Moses AKA the Law of God was done away with and we are now under Grace through faith. That is the new covenant, the New Testament and the Law of faith. Are there commandments? Yes: two of them.

We cannot be done is declaring the old law dead and done away with and repackaging it as the new covenant law. Yet, that is what many do when they say we are not under the old law, but then call it the new law. You cannot say we are under Grace but that gives us power to keep the old law.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Really? Do you have to ask? When we speak of the law being done away with or us not being under the law, which do you think we are referring to?


I actually believe I know why you are asking. Let me make things clear: the Law of Moses AKA the Law of God was done away with and we are now under Grace through faith. That is the new covenant, the New Testament and the Law of faith. Are there commandments? Yes: two of them.

We cannot be done is declaring the old law dead and done away with and repackaging it as the new covenant law. Yet, that is what many do when they say we are not under the old law, but then call it the new law. You cannot say we are under Grace but that gives us power to keep the old law.

Yes, we are not under the law of Moses, or the Old Covenant, The Ten Commandments. But we are under the commandments of Jesus He preached in the Sermon on the Mount, which are deeper than the surface commandments of the Old Covenant. They are much harder, but easier to keep because of the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

What about these don't you get:

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

 

[justbyfaith]

The law no longer condemns us from the outside; however it does govern us from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16; Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7).

This is talking about the OT law, of which not one jot or tittle shall pass away from it until heaven and earth pass away (Matthew 5:17-20).

By the law is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20); sin is also the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

If we bear the fruit of the Spirit, we will not live in violation of any just law (Galatians 5:22-23, Psalms 94:20).

There is a righteousness of God apart from the law; that is nevertheless testified to by the law and the prophets that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21)!

Paul said to us the following:

1Co 15:34, Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Therefore God tells us, through Paul, to forsake sin; and we must realize that sin is defined in 1 John 3:4 as the transgression of the law.

You must realize that this means that the Lord is telling us through Paul to be obedient to the law.

Not the letter; but the spirit (Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6).

 

[FHII]

Through this love, we are able to keep some of those impossible commandments in the Sermon on the Mount; such as love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

Some of them? Here is the thing: Jesus, Paul and James all said something similar when it comes to keeping "some of them". That is, if you keep one of them, you are indebted to keep ALL of them.

I believe in praying for and loving your enemies, by the way... That's a bit off topic, but one of the ways Paul prayed for his enemies delivering them unto Satan.

If we couldn't live the Christian life in the power of the Spirit, I believe that Christianity would have ceased to be a religion centuries ago.

Ahh, "The Christian Life"! If you mean not living under the bondage of the law but by Grace through faith, I agree. Without that simple idea, Christianity would've been just another sect of Judiasm and probably would've died.

It would have been reduced to a religion of hypocrisy in people's minds.

I'm not so sure we aren't too far away from that now. I blame mixing the law with Grace. Going back to the sermon on the mount, one of the things Jesus spoke about was, judge not, that ye be not judged". Yet when we keep the law and point to our performance as righteous, and worse scold others for not being "holy", that's what we are doing. And thus, what you are speaking of comes true.

Thankfully, there are people who actually live out the words of God.

Unlike those hypocrites who don't, right?

Justbyfaith, I appreciate what you are saying and we may actually be in agreement. I love the sermon on the mount, but we must understand what he was getting at. It's nice to analyze a particular verse in it and gleen the wonderful treasures from it; I do it as well!

We must look at the overall point or points he was getting at. I still have questions about it. But one thing I am sure of is that he raised the stakes of the law. It's not just enough to keep the law in the flesh (which is impossible to do), but we have to in our heart which means our thoughts.

If it's impossible to do so in the flesh, how much more impossible is it not to do in our mind!

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, we are not under the law of Moses, or the Old Covenant, The Ten Commandments. But we are under the commandments of Jesus He preached in the Sermon on the Mount,

I understand that you have me on your Ignore list; but will respond anyway.

Even within the Sermon on the Mount Jesus exalted the law to make it honourable (in Matthew 5:17-20).

He said that if we break the least of these commandments (speaking of the OT law of which not one jot or tittle shall be removed until heaven and earth pass away) we will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but that if we do and teach them we will be called great in the kingdom.

And this indicates to me that while we are no longer condemned by any law, we are governed by the law both of the Old and New Testaments.

Paul the apostle said that he himself was under the law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21); and this is not in contradiction to other passages in which he declares that as believers, we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6). Paul is saying that he is under the law to Christ; in that He is born again of the Holy Spirit and therefore not a sinner any longer (cf. 1 John 3:8-9) and therefore did not any longer behave in violation of the law (1 John 3:4) (whether inwardly or outwardly) because he was a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)). Because the love of God was shed abroad in his heart (Romans 5:5) and this love was the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within him (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4); Paul was not a sinner but a saint and did not violate the righteousness of the law since it was fulfilled within him.

On any occasion where Paul may have violated the law, the fact that as a believer he was not under the law, dead to the law, and delivered from the law meant that he was already forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s).

It meant that he no longer had to look to a set of do's and don'ts in an attempt to keep them; but that his walk with Christ was simplified to walking by faith and not by sight and that his lack of violating the law was the supernatural result of being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

We are not under the laws that Jesus set forth in the Sermon on the Mount and in the Sermon on the Plain in the sense that they condemn us. We are entirely set free from all condemnation if we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1). If we hear Jesus' words and believe on him who sent him, we shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24).

We are only under the laws of the New Testament in that the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts and that in this, we are obedient to them. It is not that they condemn us as believers if we violate them; but that if we are truly believers we will obey them.

Thus there is leeway and room for making mistakes and for growing up into the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

We don't have to be perfect in order to be saved; however the result of salvation is that we will eventually be perfected in the for ever sense (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

And this means that we will not sin (1 Corinthians 15:34, 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17, 1 John 3:8-9).

 

[justbyfaith]

Some of them? Here is the thing: Jesus, Paul and James all said something similar when it comes to keeping "some of them". That is, if you keep one of them, you are indebted to keep ALL of them.

If you are under grace, you are not under the law (Romans 6:14). This does not mean that you are no longer governed by the law but that you aren't condemned by it.

Ahh, "The Christian Life"! If you mean not living under the bondage of the law but by Grace through faith, I agree.

Yes, that is what I mean, in light of everything that I have said in post #71 (ROMANS 4:6 IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS)

I blame mixing the law with Grace.

I blame a departure from the law as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ.

It's not just enough to keep the law in the flesh (which is impossible to do), but we have to in our heart which means our thoughts.

It is possible to keep it in the power of the Spirit. Not by attempting to keep a set of do's and don'ts; but by walking in the Spirit: even the love of God. In this the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in you, even the law that is given in the Sermon on the Mount.

If it's impossible to do so in the flesh, how much more impossible is it not to do in our mind!

Again, we can do it in the power of the Spirit. In Christ, we take every thought to the obedience of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5). God is in all of our thoughts (Psalms 10:4). Even when such things as our shopping list are on the frontburner of our thinking, such things as the imminent return of Christ (1 John 3:2-3) and the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) continue to simmer on the backburner; and ideally they remain on the frontburner while we manage our shopping list on the backburner of our thought life.

 

[FHII]

, we are not under the law of Moses, or the Old Covenant, The Ten Commandments. But we are under the commandments of Jesus He preached in the Sermon on the Mount, which are deeper than the surface commandments of the Old Covenant. They are much harder, but easier to keep because of the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Lady, when Jesus gave the sermon, what law were they under? They were STILL under the law of Moses. Jesus was starting the transition which would really start to take off in Acts. But while Jesus was planting the seeds of Grace, they were still under the law.

They are much harder, but easier to keep because of the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

You are right that they are much harder, but no they aren't easier to keep. They are harder to keep then ever. God doesn't take away the desires of the flesh. I hope you read my response to Justbyfaith, cause it'll explain a lot.

What about these don't you get:

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

I already dealt with this one.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

When Jesus died, I was baptized into his death. Thus, being a dead man, I don't sin. My flesh does, but I don't.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Same answer as above.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Doctrine of Penal Substitution

Lady, when Jesus gave the sermon, what law were they under? They were STILL under the law of Moses. Jesus was starting the transition which would really start to take off in Acts. But while Jesus was planting the seeds of Grace, they were still under the law.

Go back and read it again. He quotes the Old LAW when He says, "you have heard it said..." and then says, "But I say..." What he says then are the New Covenant laws of Jesus.

You are right that they are much harder, but no they aren't easier to keep. They are harder to keep then ever. God doesn't take away the desires of the flesh. I hope you read my response to Justbyfaith, cause it'll explain a lot.

That depends on if you have been filled with the Holy Spirit or not. It is very hard for those who haven't been. But is easier for those whose nature it is now to obey. This is what it is like when our carnal nature is reborn:

It is like having the nature of a lion with only a taste for blood and meat, and going to the nature of a lamb that hates blood and meat, and only wants fresh green grass. You do what comes naturally: either that of a lion, or that of a lamb. So if the New Covenant laws are to eat grass, it is very easy for the lamb, but impossible for the lion.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Thus, being a dead man, I don't sin. My flesh does, but I don't.

If your flesh still does, so do you. What you are doing to the grace of God, is turning it into licentiousness. Jude 1:4. A doctrine of demons.

Your flesh is your nature, and if you are not born again, you will come up with all sorts of falsehoods, because the truth is foolishness to the carnal mind.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Good night.

 

[FHII]

Go back and read it again. He quotes the Old LAW when He says, "you have heard it said..." and then says, "But I say..." What he says then are the New Covenant laws of Jesus.

That's not the new covenant. That's Jesus expounding on the old covenant.

That depends on if you have been filled with the Holy Spirit or not. It is very hard for those who haven't been. But is easier for those whose nature it is now to obey. This is what it is like when our carnal nature is reborn:

Romans 7:19 KJV
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Paul was speaking of himself. He said (actually 3 different times in this chapter) that the good he intended to do, he didn't do. But the evil he didn't intend to do, he actually did do.

By the way, he was saying this in the present tense, so no.. it wasn't before he was on the road to Antioch.

I actually believe Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe it led him in writing 13 Epistles that are necessary to our doctrine... At least to mine. I believe that if anyone ever had the Holy Spirit, it was Paul! This guy had that spirit!

Or do you disagree?

So if the spirit didn't keep Paul from the desires of the flesh and from sin... What makes you think he will keep me from such?

Or you?

Well ain't that a kick in the pants? The Holy spirit didn't keep Paul from sinning (or maybe he didn't have it), but you! The Holy Spirit keeps you from the desires and thus, sinning in the flesh! And not only that, it's easy for you!

Lady, I am not fooled. You are still trying to keep the law. You mouth the verse that says you are not under the law, but you are still trying to keep it. Furthermore, you claim that the Holy Spirit gives you power to do so and that it's easy for you.

That's all rubbish.

He didn't do it for Paul. He didn't do it for me either, but I am not pointing to myself... Paul wasn't Jesus but he was his ambassador.

If the Holy Spirit didn't grant the power to stop sinning easily to Paul, I am in good company!

You are right that they are much harder, but no they aren't easier to keep. They are harder to keep then ever. God doesn't take away the desires of the flesh.

That depends on if you have been filled with the Holy Spirit or not. It is very hard for those who haven't been. But is easier for those whose nature it is now to obey.

Ladies and gentlemen of the board: May I present to you the only one who the Holy Spirit has EVER taken away the desire to sin, much less the actual committing of sin! But if she sins, it was an accident, and not her fault!

(I must bow out of our conversation. Your spiritual superiority complex is bringing me back to a former persona I once had. I will not let you bring that back. May God be with you, if he is willing)

 

[justbyfaith]

You are right that they are much harder, but no they aren't easier to keep. They are harder to keep then ever. God doesn't take away the desires of the flesh.

Jhn 6:35, And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jhn 4:13, Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Jhn 4:14, But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jhn 7:37, In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 7:38, He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Thus, being a dead man, I don't sin. My flesh does, but I don't.

If your flesh still does, so do you. What you are doing to the grace of God, is turning it into licentiousness. Jude 1:4. A doctrine of demons.

I think that I agree with @CharismaticLady here.

Romans 7:19 KJV
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Paul was speaking of himself.

Paul was using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION (see 1 Corinthians 9:22) to define carnality.

There are two types of believer: carnal and spiritual (1 Corinthians 3:1). Paul was the latter.

So if the spirit didn't keep Paul from the desires of the flesh and from sin... What makes you think he will keep me from such?

Or you?

I believe that she is saying that it is her experience that the Lord has taken away her desire to sin.

And who are we to argue with the experience of another?

If the Holy Spirit didn't grant the power to stop sinning easily to Paul, I am in good company!

Paul spoke of the fact that the law of the Spirit of life had set him free from the law of sin and death (which he had spoken of in Romans 7:14-25).

Ladies and gentlemen of the board: May I present to you the only one who the Holy Spirit has EVER taken away the desire to sin,

Have you not heard of the countless drug addicts who have come to Jesus; whom the Lord took the desire for drugs away from them?

If the Lord can do that with drugs, most assuredly He can also do that with other sins!

Jhn 6:35, And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jhn 4:13, Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Jhn 4:14, But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jhn 7:37, In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 7:38, He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[CharismaticLady]

That's not the new covenant. That's Jesus expounding on the old covenant.

If you don't read this, maybe it will help someone else that is more hungry and thirsty for righteousness.

Brother, Jesus did not come to teach the Old Covenant, that can't even be kept because of our carnal nature. Why teach an ever harder law that would be even more impossible to keep? He came to teach the true laws of God. The eternal laws that last forever, that He alone can enable us to keep by being born again of the divine Spirit.

Paul uses the word "flesh" to not only mean our body of muscle and blood, but our soul, our nature. When in Roman 8:9 Paul says that we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells us, and if we do not have the Spirit of Christ we do not belong go Him, he wasn't talking about being out of our body, but in a higher nature. All our past sins are forgiven and cleansed, but only our past sins. That is His only part of His wonderful grace. You believe that also our present and future sins are under that grace, but that is not how grace works on the other side of justification. Grace is the power of God, first to blot out our past iniquities, and then to empower us. Here is 2 Peter 1. Read it carefully and note Peter's warning.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. (Not present and future sins)

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble (sin); 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Romans 7:19 KJV
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Paul was speaking of himself. He said (actually 3 different times in this chapter) that the good he intended to do, he didn't do. But the evil he didn't intend to do, he actually did do.

By the way, he was saying this in the present tense, so no.. it wasn't before he was on the road to Antioch.

It is amazing to me just how many people believe as you do about Romans 7. It is actually unbelievable in this age of increased knowledge and higher education and logic! Read Romans 7:9, which is part of the context of your verse 19. It talks of "I" before and after the Mosaic Laws were given to Moses. Look, its PRESENT TENSE! Wow! Paul must have been a very old man when he wrote Romans 7 to have lived even before Moses!

God gave the laws to mankind through the Jews. The "I" is relevant to the history of mankind.

Romans 7 is about the struggle it was to try to keep the Mosaic LAW with our sin nature (vs. 13). He cleverly shows the struggle in verses 14-23, which includes 19. It is the law of sin and death, also called the ministry of death in 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 comparing the ministry of death to the ministry of the Spirit. That is the same as Romans 7, the ministry of death, vs. Romans 8, the ministry of the Spirit.

Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Our body is not our nature. Our nature will be with us even in heaven. But only the divine nature will be there. Revelation 22:11

Verse 3 above is the same a 1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

Also verses 8-9 "He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

One of the ways Jews write is with the Semitic writing styles (non Greek). We are western and it is hard to see the true meaning of an eastern style. Another verse that emphasizes that grace is His divine power favored to us is Acts 4:33

33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

 

[FHII]

Paul was using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION (see 1 Corinthians 9:22) to define carnality.

No he wasn't.... 1 Corinthians 9:22 doesn't have a darned thing to do with Romans 7. I am one to believe Paul when he says something; not try to explain why he didn't mean what he said.

Have you not heard of the countless drug addicts who have come to Jesus; whom the Lord took the desire for drugs away from them?

If the Lord can do that with drugs, most assuredly He can also do that with other sins!

Yes, there are a bunch of them in my Church. THey are doing great, but they still don't put themselves in certain circumstances or hang around with certain people because the desire can be invited back. Also, they are still sinners, so no... The Holy Spirit isn't given to take away sin. Jesus did that once!

I think that I agree with @CharismaticLady here.

Then feel free to join her on her soap box. I am not going to spend time arguing with people who think they don't sin and don't even have the desire to sin. It's a waste of my time to do so.

I'll be sure to put your name on that list too.