ROMANS 4:6 IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS

[Episkopos]

I had another thought .....we have the righteousness of God placed on our account if you will....we have no righteousness at all or outside of his righteousness.....it is only what comes from God.

Not exactly. Jesus said...without Me you can do nothing. So can an unbeliever pick up a broom or shovel?

One must understand what one is talking about. We can do NOTHING from an eternal perspective without Christ. But we can do lots of things without Him. Just not eternal things of value.

 

[Episkopos]

I do not agree.

Look carefully at the wording of what you have come to believe. You will need some time to sort this out.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It is rather (grace) the power of God to ALL who believe...first the Jew but also the Gentile. Anything else is a doctrine from men.

Yes, grace is the power of God to not sin, not a license to sin. Many in the Church believe Jesus came to pay the penalty of sin, and only covered our sins as we keep committing them willfully. No, he came to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin.

 

[farouk]

His righteousness is not placed on us, but placed IN us. It is the nature of the new birth. We do not do what pleased the carnal nature. We do what is in our new nature.

It is an imputation; a reckoning. The infusion aspect is sanctification. This is the difference Biblically between justification and sanctification.

 

[Episkopos]

The new nature (ingrained through the new birth in Christ) in us makes us WANT to do what is right...but not the power to do so. Read Romans 7 for details. We need to enter into Christ to have the power that overcomes sin. (How many have a full victory over sin? So this will NOT go down well)

So then he who does what is righteous is righteous even as Jesus is righteous. Righteous is as righteous does. So then a Hindu can be as righteous as Jesus in that he does what Jesus does. Same act...same righteousness. (now the religious ones will get into a snit on that one) So then righteousness just is.

Now nobody is as righteous as God. But we can take on HIS righteousness...as a gift...undeservedly....by putting on Christ. Then we act as His voice in the world...having His authority. But few understand what that is in experience. It's mainly theory to most. So more snits will follow.

 

[Episkopos]

It is an imputation; a reckoning. The infusion aspect is sanctification. This is the difference Biblically between justification and sanctification.

That is not right. We never become holy of ourselves. We enter INTO Christ to take on HIS holiness. There we partake of His life...not our own. But we CAN learn righteousness.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It is an imputation; a reckoning. The infusion aspect is sanctification. This is the difference Biblically between justification and sanctification.

Sanctification means to be set apart. I pondered this for a long time because something wasn't right about the view you hold, and I used to hold. It started when I noticed in Hebrews 10:26-31 that he was sanctified (past tense). I found that sanctification is back to back with justification which is the cleansing of ALL our past sins. We are then given a new nature that hates sin, making "past, present and future sins" a fallacy. (Man has added the last two, meaning our sins are automatically forgiven as we commit them - a doctrine of demons. Satan would love that everyone believed that lie.) The new birth is a process of maturity that you may call sanctification, but I now call it glorification. The error is in the belief that sanctification is a process of overcoming sin. No, that has already been done. When we receive the Holy Spirit, we receive His power. Here is what happens now to mature in the divine nature.

2 Peter 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But we CAN learn righteousness.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

We agree. See #12

 

[marks]

The new nature (ingrained through the new birth in Christ) in us makes us WANT to do what is right...but not the power to do so. Read Romans 7 for details. We need to enter into Christ to have the power that overcomes sin. (How many have a full victory over sin? So this will NOT go down well)

And yet Romans 7 and 8 teaches where that power is, and that we already have it, being already In Christ.

This is simply persisting in telling the Christian that they lack power over sin and that's simply not true.

So then he who does what is righteous is righteous even as Jesus is righteous. Righteous is as righteous does. So then a Hindu can be as righteous as Jesus in that he does what Jesus does. Same act...same righteousness. (now the religious ones will get into a snit on that one) So then righteousness just is.

To this I remind that counting on good works to save you is a lost cause, because everyone has already sinned, and there is no one who does not sin.

So, yes, were there some who lived as righteously as Jesus did, then yes, they would be accepted on their own merit. But, seriously, no one does that. All have sinned, and fallen short of God's glory.

Now nobody is as righteous as God. But we can take on HIS righteousness...as a gift...undeservedly....by putting on Christ. Then we act as His voice in the world...having His authority. But few understand what that is in experience. It's mainly theory to most. So more snits will follow.

We have either the teaching of Scripture, what you apparently denigrate as "theory", compared to your claim to be "His voice", "having His authority".

True authority is in the Scriptures, though many may want to elevate their experiences.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is impossible that God's righteousness be imputed to us.

God is therefore the God of the impossible...for righteousness is indeed imputed to us:

Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

So then the faith OF Jesus makes us to do miracles because we have HIS grace...His righteousness...His authority.

First you said that God's righteousness is not imputed to us...then you say that we have God's righteousness...I believe that you just contradicted yourself.

But by their very definition these never become ours.

According to Romans 5:17 and context, God's righteousness is a free gift unto us. Therefore, if we receive it as a gift, it now belongs to us.

But the righteousness of God comes upon us by supernatural visitation and gifting.

Again you contradict yourself.

But people today make a lot of foolish claims...like they have the righteousness of God on them IN their sins.

We are indeed declared righteous even when we are ungodly...Romans 4:5...this does not mean that God leaves us in the state of being ungodly. He calls forth righteousness within us, when it is not, as though it is (Romans 4:17) and in doing so He creates a new reality of righteousness within us.

Christ in us is a hope...not a done deal.

Christ in us is the hope of glory...this does not change the fact that He is Christ in us...and in that it is indeed a done deal.

Not exactly. Jesus said...without Me you can do nothing. So can an unbeliever pick up a broom or shovel?

In Him we live and move and have our being. Jesus is God; we cannot even lift a shovel without Him; for in Him all things consist.

The new nature (ingrained through the new birth in Christ) in us makes us WANT to do what is right...but not the power to do so.

The new nature within us means that we are not obligated to commit sin...

Rom 8:12, Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

We are also obligated to not commit sin by virtue of the same verse.

So then he who does what is righteous is righteous even as Jesus is righteous. Righteous is as righteous does. So then a Hindu can be as righteous as Jesus in that he does what Jesus does. Same act...same righteousness.

No; for we are declared righteous because of our faith: and we are not righteous because of what we do; rather we do righteousness because of who we are by faith. It is that we do righteousness because we are righteous (through faith); not that we are righteous because we do righteousness.

and there is no one who does not sin.

I disagree.

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

So, yes, were there some who lived as righteously as Jesus did, then yes, they would be accepted on their own merit.

Those who live righteously as Jesus did are not accepted on their own merit; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The adverb "have" applies to both "sinned" and "come short" (putting them both in past tense). But the point being that there are sins in our past that must be forgiven; which can never be forgiven because of our own merit.

But if we translate from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Christ; and are no longer children of the devil (committers of sin, 1 John 3:8): then it is merely speaking of the fact that we have been born of God; not that we enter in based on our own merit: but that we are made worthy (Revelation 3:4) and holy (Hebrews 3:1, Psalms 86:2) through being filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 3:19-20, 1 Corinthians 6:17); being made one flesh with Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32) in whom there is no sin (1 John 3:5).

We stand in the righteousness of Christ as it is imputed (and imparted) to us.

Having been forgiven, we have begun a life of abiding in Christ.

But our salvation does not rest in our abiding per se (for abiding is the result of having been saved; and of course without it you will be cast forth as a withered branch and be burned in the fire); but in the fact that we have been forgiven through the blood of Christ.

 

[Doug]

God is therefore the God of the impossible...for righteousness is indeed imputed to us:

Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,



First you said that God's righteousness is not imputed to us...then you say that we have God's righteousness...I believe that you just contradicted yourself.



According to Romans 5:17 and context, God's righteousness is a free gift unto us. Therefore, if we receive it as a gift, it now belongs to us.



Again you contradict yourself.



We are indeed declared righteous even when we are ungodly...Romans 4:5...this does not mean that God leaves us in the state of being ungodly. He calls forth righteousness within us, when it is not, as though it is (Romans 4:17) and in doing so He creates a new reality of righteousness within us.



Christ in us is the hope of glory...this does not change the fact that He is Christ in us...and in that it is indeed a done deal.



In Him we live and move and have our being. Jesus is God; we cannot even lift a shovel without Him; for in Him all things consist.



The new nature within us means that we are not obligated to commit sin...

Rom 8:12, Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

We are also obligated to not commit sin by virtue of the same verse.



No; for we are declared righteous because of our faith: and we are not righteous because of what we do; rather we do righteousness because of who we are by faith. It is that we do righteousness because we are righteous (through faith); not that we are righteous because we do righteousness.



I disagree.

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.



Those who live righteously as Jesus did are not accepted on their own merit; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The adverb "have" applies to both "sinned" and "come short". But the point being that there are sins in our past that must be forgiven; which can never be forgiven because of our own merit.

But if we translate from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Christ; and are no longer children of the devil (committers of sin, 1 John 3:8): then it is merely speaking of the fact that we have been born of God; not that we enter in based on our own merit: but that we are made worthy (Revelation 3:4) and holy (Hebrews 3:1, Psalms 86:2) through being filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 3:19-20); being made one flesh with Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32) in whom there is no sin (1 John 3:5).

We stand in the righteousness of Christ as it is imputed (and imparted) to us.

Having been forgiven, we have begun a life of abiding in Christ.

But our salvation does not rest in our abiding per se (for abiding is the result of having been saved; and of course without it you will be cast forth as a withered branch and be burned in the fire); but in the fact that we have been forgiven through the blood of Christ.

Good post....thanks

 

[justbyfaith]

Good post....thanks

You're welcome.

 

[FHII]

Yes, grace is the power of God to not sin, not a license to sin. Many in the Church believe Jesus came to pay the penalty of sin, and only covered our sins as we keep committing them willfully. No, he came to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin.

That is not true.

Our transgressions are forgiven and our sins are covered. God does not input sin. However much sin abounds in us, Grace does much more abound.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is not true.

Our transgressions are forgiven and our sins are covered. God does not input sin. However much sin abounds in us, Grace does much more abound.

See Jude 1:3-4 in the NIV.

Here, I'll quote it for you:

Jde 1:3, Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
Jde 1:4, For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[fn] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That is not true.

Our transgressions are forgiven and our sins are covered. God does not input sin. However much sin abounds in us, Grace does much more abound.

Read my post above with the purple highlight.

 

[FHII]

See Jude 1:3-4 in the NIV.

Here, I'll quote it for you:

Jde 1:3, Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
Jde 1:4, For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[fn] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

I absolutely agree with that verse and absolutely disagree with your emphasis on words.

Jude 1:4 KJV
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[FHII]

Read my post above with the purple highlight.

No.
Make your point clearer. I am not going to chase colors. I am responding to the quote in question.

 

[farouk]

Sanctification means to be set apart. I pondered this for a long time because something wasn't right about the view you hold, and I used to hold. It started when I noticed in Hebrews 10:26-31 that he was sanctified (past tense). I found that sanctification is back to back with justification which is the cleansing of ALL our past sins. We are then given a new nature that hates sin, making "past, present and future sins" a fallacy. (Man has added the last two, meaning our sins are automatically forgiven as we commit them - a doctrine of demons. Satan would love that everyone believed that lie.) The new birth is a process of maturity that you may call sanctification, but I now call it glorification. The error is in the belief that sanctification is a process of overcoming sin. No, that has already been done. When we receive the Holy Spirit, we receive His power. Here is what happens now to mature in the divine nature.

2 Peter 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

There is both a positional and conditional aspect to sanctification. In the Epistles Paul addresses believers as sanctified - this is positional. There is also the daily work of sanctification in the believer's life.

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos said: ↑

It is impossible that God's righteousness be imputed to us.

@justbyfaith
God is therefore the God of the impossible...for righteousness is indeed imputed to us:

Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Again a reading skill issue. In your reading you are adding in your idea that God imputes HIS OWN righteousness to us. So you are believing a fiction.