What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor
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When read and interpreted correctly yes they do. Inferred, but still.
And beyond this, there are even more problems; even if you do believe that the trinity is just a unity, Mormons still hold to the fact that God was just a man, so.... STILL not the same God as Christianity.
Except that Joseph Smith saying something doesn’t automatically make it LDS Christian doctrine. And this speculative statement is not remotely cannonized nor actively discussed in LDS Church. You’ll find folks with a wide variety of views on this, all in good standing. Zero of them are what a Creedal person would think because LDS Christians arent Creedal Christians with those traditons
I believe according to LDS doctrine, non-Mormons end up in the second heaven, not the highest heaven where "Heavenly Father" is. Only those Mormons who fulfill certain requirements (such as the "temple endowment") become exalted Men, or God.
If this is necessary for salvation, why would it not be directly stated in scripture?
Yes, I understand this. But I don't consider his words speculative in the least. After all, he is the founder of LDS.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
But in what he quoted, it does, and you know it. Do yourself a favor and stop being disingenuous, humble yourself, admit the teachings of your sect, that the teachings of Mormonism are not biblical Christianity, and accept the fact it is a different Christ and gospel altogether: You know this is true. John 8:24.
If you want to talk with (or about)LDS Christians effectively , then you need to understand how LDS Christians view things. Not how you consider things.
Yes, I understand this too, and WADR (again), I have read and heard how Mormons view things.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Viewing God by your interpretation........is your opinion....won't even get you a discount on coffee.
Considering the tens of thousands of interpretations of the Scriptures you would have to be pretty delusional to think that.
On of the reasons the Mormons in the video (above) were singing a hymn of praise to Joseph Smith is explained in this quote:
No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith... every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are. ~Journal of Discourses 7:289
No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith... every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are. ~Journal of Discourses 7:289
There you go again, GH, sounding like we cannot know the truth about God even though He has made Himself known through the Bible.
I'm going to be direct here:
If either of you are concerned about anyone's salvation, then talk with me about CHRIST and SALVATION.
Joseph Smith is not the Savior nor a perfect individual. No one thinks he is. A quote from him is not automatically LDS doctrine, even in the eyes of LDS Christians. And it for sure doesn't matter how anyone else sees it. Ditch the straw man agreements.
Talk Christ and salvation.
Then we have gone full circle. This is how you started off your comments to me in this thread.
Let's put this into perspective. Jesus Christ is the founder of Christianity. I will quote Him any time when explaining Christian doctrine. But you don't consider the founder of LDS to be a reliable source when it comes to understanding basic LDS doctrine.
I realize that LDS doctrine has changed over the years, but when I want to understand a belief system, I go back to the foundation of that belief system. Joseph Smith is considered to be the prophet that founded Mormonism and established its early basic doctrine.
.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
There you go again, GH, sounding like we cannot know the truth about God even though He has made Himself known through the Bible.
Ass-um-ing you say that in jest since the number of denominations I fellowship with.
And since I got you on the line....humor.....
King David a prophet???? He would be one unique prophet....I might vote for him....
I heard friend of mine say that old parental saying, "Don't do what I do, do what I say." I looked at him and said, "King David."
1. God would not allow the Temple to be built while he was King, because of the blood on his hands.
2. He killed two hundred men for their foreskins to give to King Saul for his daughter's hand in marriage.
3. Got caught kissing Jonathan in a field.
4. Of course he did the adultery thing with Bathsheba and had her husband killed.
Prophet? In a lot of ways he would be like Augustine....I so messed up!....but not my fault....I was born with sin and God made me do it.....no disciple...or morals....everybody must be that way....here is the theology of a sociopath.
I'm going to be extremely blunt here: I don't attend the church of Joseph Smith. Christ is the center of my faith. And I find that in general (all of this post is generic) "anti cultists" would rather spend thier time tearing down a man everyone acknowledges was a sinner, and refuse to talk about Christ. Which is irksome. I'm a Christian- I want to talk about Christ all day long every day. Why must I have to convince other people (whom also claim to be Christians) to quit wasting time attacking a sinner to instead talk about Christ?
You know the Bible better than this, GH! You do yourself a disservice with your blathering on in this post.
David is called a prophet in this verse:
Acts 2:29-31--Brothers, I can confidently speak to you about the patriarch David: He is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn an oath to him to seat one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing this in advance, he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Messiah: He was not left in Hades, and His flesh did not experience decay.
Also, David prophesied about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
Psalms 22
For the choir director: according to “The Deer of the Dawn.” A Davidic psalm.
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Why are You so far from my deliverance
and from my words of groaning?
My God, I cry by day, but You do not answer,
by night, yet I have no rest.
But You are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
Our fathers trusted in You;
they trusted, and You rescued them.
They cried to You and were set free;
they trusted in You and were not disgraced.
But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by people.
Everyone who sees me mocks me;
they sneer and shake their heads:
“He relies on the Lord;
let Him rescue him;
let the Lord deliver him,
since He takes pleasure in him.”
You took me from the womb,
making me secure while at my mother’s breast.
I was given over to You at birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
Do not be far from me, because distress is near
and there is no one to help.
Many bulls surround me;
strong ones of Bashan encircle me.
They open their mouths against me —
lions, mauling and roaring.
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are disjointed;
my heart is like wax,
melting within me.
My strength is dried up like baked clay;
my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth.
You put me into the dust of death.
For dogs have surrounded me;
a gang of evildoers has closed in on me;
they pierced my hands and my feet.
I can count all my bones;
people look and stare at me.
They divided my garments among themselves,
and they cast lots for my clothing.
But You, Lord, don’t be far away.
My strength, come quickly to help me.
Deliver my life from the sword,
my only life from the power of these dogs.
Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued me
from the horns of the wild oxen.
I will proclaim Your name to my brothers;
I will praise You in the congregation.
You who fear Yahweh, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor Him!
All you descendants of Israel, revere Him!
For He has not despised or detested
the torment of the afflicted.
He did not hide His face from him
but listened when he cried to Him for help.
I will give praise in the great congregation
because of You;
I will fulfill my vows
before those who fear You.
The humble will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise Him.
May your hearts live forever!
All the ends of the earth will remember
and turn to the Lord.
All the families of the nations
will bow down before You,
for kingship belongs to the Lord;
He rules over the nations.
All who prosper on earth will eat and bow down;
all those who go down to the dust
will kneel before Him —
even the one who cannot preserve his life.
Their descendants will serve Him;
the next generation will be told about the Lord.
They will come and tell a people yet to be born
about His righteousness —
what He has done.
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Why are You so far from my deliverance
and from my words of groaning?
My God, I cry by day, but You do not answer,
by night, yet I have no rest.
But You are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
Our fathers trusted in You;
they trusted, and You rescued them.
They cried to You and were set free;
they trusted in You and were not disgraced.
But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by people.
Everyone who sees me mocks me;
they sneer and shake their heads:
“He relies on the Lord;
let Him rescue him;
let the Lord deliver him,
since He takes pleasure in him.”
You took me from the womb,
making me secure while at my mother’s breast.
I was given over to You at birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
Do not be far from me, because distress is near
and there is no one to help.
Many bulls surround me;
strong ones of Bashan encircle me.
They open their mouths against me —
lions, mauling and roaring.
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are disjointed;
my heart is like wax,
melting within me.
My strength is dried up like baked clay;
my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth.
You put me into the dust of death.
For dogs have surrounded me;
a gang of evildoers has closed in on me;
they pierced my hands and my feet.
I can count all my bones;
people look and stare at me.
They divided my garments among themselves,
and they cast lots for my clothing.
But You, Lord, don’t be far away.
My strength, come quickly to help me.
Deliver my life from the sword,
my only life from the power of these dogs.
Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued me
from the horns of the wild oxen.
I will proclaim Your name to my brothers;
I will praise You in the congregation.
You who fear Yahweh, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor Him!
All you descendants of Israel, revere Him!
For He has not despised or detested
the torment of the afflicted.
He did not hide His face from him
but listened when he cried to Him for help.
I will give praise in the great congregation
because of You;
I will fulfill my vows
before those who fear You.
The humble will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise Him.
May your hearts live forever!
All the ends of the earth will remember
and turn to the Lord.
All the families of the nations
will bow down before You,
for kingship belongs to the Lord;
He rules over the nations.
All who prosper on earth will eat and bow down;
all those who go down to the dust
will kneel before Him —
even the one who cannot preserve his life.
Their descendants will serve Him;
the next generation will be told about the Lord.
They will come and tell a people yet to be born
about His righteousness —
what He has done.
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Again...I might vote for him.....still a unique prophet.....a lot of words in the OT......give me a thousand darts and maybe one will land on target. Don't you think he could have shown people best by example?
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
We've talked about Christ and the well known undeniable fact that your "Christ," the "Christ" of Joseph Smith, Young, Woodruff, Snow, yourself and Mormons is not the Christ of Scripture. Now, which Christ do you wish to "discuss?" The brother of Satan, offspring of a physical relationship with Mary, a created being, or, the Christ of Scripture?
Then read this. I edited my post.
David is called a prophet in this verse:
Acts 2:29-31--Brothers, I can confidently speak to you about the patriarch David: He is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn an oath to him to seat one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing this in advance, he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Messiah: He was not left in Hades, and His flesh did not experience decay.
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