righteousness

[Episkopos]

---The Publican is not an example of NT salvation and how men today come into a covenant relationship to God.

Repentance will never go out of style.

Not until the sinner obeys God's righteousness,

According to God's righteousness we need to love our neighbour.

 

[Episkopos]

I know of no example in the Bible of an unbeliever obeying God's commands. Unbelief itself is disobedience to God.

You are confusing a holiness standard (loving God) with a righteousness standard (loving your neighbour). It may surprise you to know that the "royal law" is not about believing in God...but loving others as yourself.

--that righteousness is something DONE, an action in obeying God's will and not a mere mental assent of the mind.

Agreed.

--that no one was ever seen as righteous by God BEFORE that person obeyed God's will.

Agreed. But do you realize that one can obey God's will without knowing it?

--that there is a difference between one doing his OWN righteousness that does not save and doing GOD'S righteousness that does save.."obedience unto righteousness" Romans 6:16. Faith only proponents do not want to see this difference.

But there is a lot more to it than that. feeding someone who is hungry does not require that one be baptized in the Spirit and anointed to do the impossible works in holiness.

The problem is when we confuse holiness and righteousness...which you are doing right now. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for that very thing. Claiming they were justified by holiness requirements...just like modern believers do today....mix up holiness requirements with basic righteousness.

Do you realize that there are 2 main commandments and that people in trying to be holy...actually become worse sinners for it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ah...finally saw something you said earlier somewhere epi...

What must I do to be saved?

Love your neighbor.

 

[faithfulness]

There is no sin of omission if you are abiding in Christ. In Christ we are as He is in the world.

Yes.

We add sin into the mix when we mix ourselves with Christ.

There can be no SELF in Christ. Agree

There is no mixture possible in holiness. Yes.
Any mixture is outside of holiness. Any mixture with holiness is un-holiness. Agree

Any self-effort just takes us farther away from Christ.

Would you help me understand? Is mixing ourselves with Christ and self-effort when we claim to be In Christ and abiding in Him while there is sin in our lives?

 

[Episkopos]

Yes.


Would you help me understand? Is mixing ourselves with Christ and self-effort when we claim to be In Christ and abiding in Him while there is sin in our lives?

Yes, the definition of iniquity..... mixing ourselves with Christ and saying it's Him.

 

[faithfulness]

You are confusing a holiness standard (loving God) with a righteousness standard (loving your neighbour).

A beloved brother once said, "Christ in me, I love God; me in Christ, I love others."
In order to understand righteousness, can we/are we "loving God" before attaining to a holiness standard? Or as the brother said, is it the other way around?

 

[faithfulness]

Do you realize that there are 2 main commandments and that people in trying to be holy...actually become worse sinners for it.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I don't understand your statement>" that people in trying to be holy...actually become worse sinners for it." Thank you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Salvation isn't a house.

Do you seek the terrestrial conventions of man to define the spiritual realities of God?

You HAVE to use earthly, understandable things to try and discuss spiritual things...

I don't get what you are having a problem with...Jesus used earthly things to explain spiritual realities all the time.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't know of any sin in Christ? Do you?

certainly, He was accused of blasphemy, couple times i think, accused of being an imbiber, some other accusations if i recall correctly. A point possibly being that "sin" is often a subjective thing, quite often an accusation. Did Jesus sin? I would say No, but depends upon who you ask, right. What would a jew say?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

A beloved brother once said, "Christ in me, I love God; me in Christ, I love others."
In order to understand righteousness, can we/are we "loving God" before attaining to a holiness standard? Or as the brother said, is it the other way around?

I think that brother had it right. We love God because He first loved us.

We can love God but not be holy. And we can have the righteousness by trust. But the only way to truly love my neighbor, a real and sacrificial love I mean, that puts others first, I don't have that in me. I have to be in Him, not just have Him in me, to have that kind of love.

 

[Ezra]

But you have not answered if you believe there is sin in Christ or not...and how important that is. Can we enter into Christ with sins?

Do you understand that the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin?

Or do you think Jesus harbours sin in Him?

So then the key to being holy and perfect as God is...is to enter into Christ who knew no sin.

Do you deny the power and holiness of Christ?

Do you deny that we can actually enter into Him to partake of His holiness and power?

there is no sin in Christ there is a sinful nature in us paul wrote no to be conformed to this world but transformed. he also said present our bodies a living sacrifice.. why because the old nature can come in

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think that brother had it right. We love God because He first loved us.

We can love God but not be holy. And we can have the righteousness by trust. But the only way to truly love my neighbor, a real and sacrificial love I mean, that puts others first, I don't have that in me. I have to be in Him, not just have Him in me, to have that kind of love.

But then I am struggling with how can I love God who I don't see if I can't love my brother who I do see...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I used to seethe in my mind at the selfishness of another woman. Then I saw I was just like her and I could at times have such a swelling of love for her.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So I guess, odd as it sounds, when I saw myself more accurately, I loved her more. It's still not a sacrificial love though...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

there is no sin in Christ there is a sinful nature in us

And there is the point. If there is no sin in Christ, how can one be in Him and sin?

It makes more sense to me to tear down the thought that I am in Him/abiding, than to go on insisting I am in Him while sinning.

If we abide in Him we don't sin. So if I sin, I must not be abiding in Him. He is still in me though. He is faithful even if I am not.

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I don't understand your statement>" that people in trying to be holy...actually become worse sinners for it." Thank you.

Transgressing righteousness in an effort to be justified for our stance in holiness. Holding the truth but in unrighteousness.

 

[Ezra]

And there is the point. If there is no sin in Christ, how can one be in Him and sin?

It makes more sense to me to tear down the thought that I am in Him/abiding, than to go on insisting I am in Him while sinning.

If we abide in Him we don't sin. So if I sin, I must not be abiding in Him. He is still in me though. He is faithful even if I am not.

would it be your belief that it is impossible to fall into sin as a christian or we can not sin?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

would it be your belief that it is impossible to fall into sin as a christian or we can not sin?

I do not believe it is impossible to fall into sin as a Christian. But I believe it is impossible to fall into sin if we are abiding in Him.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

not sure where to post this but looking see postings on righteousness

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. i understand what christ is saying .. there is self righteousness and there is true righteousness . in isaiah 64;6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away so we know any thing we do to make us righteous .is like filthy rags which refers to discarded menstrual cloth .
we know paul wrote in philippians Christ is our righteousness
Philippians 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

other words we could use is justified sanctified . feel free to comment please no arguments . the moment we are saved we are declared righteous . but i will leave this question open . is that the end of righteousness for those truly saved as in nothing else to do. or is there some things in scripture we are to follow ?

For us, I wouldn't say it is a difference between self righteousness and true righteousness. I guess I would say it is more like the difference between doing what He said outwardly and doing what He said inwardly (in spirit and truth.)

Outwardly, I can do the command to love others as myself. For instance, I give food to a hungry man. But inwardly, I can be seething and angry at him, thinking, he wouldn't be in the hungry position he's in if he didn't sit on the bench near the liquor store drinking all day, too drunk for anyone to hire him. So according to Jesus, I haven't loved him but have instead murdered him.

So I can do the right thing and give him some food. But I can't change my heart. I truly think, he has done this to himself, and if I'm having a bad day, that anger at him will make me walk by him instead of giving him some food. I'll think, no, I fed you three days in a row, im not feeding you again today, if you have enough money to get drunk, then get yourself some food.

So, how do I change my heart toward him? I have no idea. I can't. I can pretend, because he can't see my thoughts, but what's the use of pretending? It just makes me a hypocrite, saying/doing one thing outwardly while saying/doing the opposite inwardly. So you see, my righteousness has not exceeded the righteousness of a Pharisee as He has said it must.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

For us, I wouldn't say it is a difference between self righteousness and true righteousness. I guess I would say it is more like the difference between doing what He said outwardly and doing what He said inwardly (in spirit and truth.)

Outwardly, I can do the command to love others as myself. For instance, I give food to a hungry man. But inwardly, I can be seething and angry at him, thinking, he wouldn't be in the hungry position he's in if he didn't sit on the bench near the liquor store drinking all day, too drunk for anyone to hire him. So according to Jesus, I haven't loved him but have instead murdered him.

So I can do the right thing and give him some food. But I can't change my heart. I truly think, he has done this to himself, and if I'm having a bad day, that anger at him will make me walk by him instead of giving him some food. I'll think, no, I fed you three days in a row, im not feeding you again today, if you have enough money to get drunk, then get yourself some food.

So, how do I change my heart toward him? I have no idea. I can't. I can pretend, because he can't see my thoughts, but what's the use of pretending? It just makes me a hypocrite, saying/doing one thing outwardly while saying/doing the opposite inwardly. So you see, my righteousness has not exceeded the righteousness of a Pharisee as He has said it must.

Or...maybe there is at least some difference...I at least can see and admit what my heart is doing. I can at least be truthful and say, I haven't really loved that man. I guess a Pharisee would claim he HAD obeyed the command to love the man...