Interpreting Romans 6:23 In Context

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farouk

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I think it still is a battle ground. Not one of stakes and burning, but still one of words and division. Which is sad. Even if such words are charitable, as they have been here, thank goodness, I suppose I still have a heavy heart that Christ would pay such a price to purchase something for us, for us to not avail ourselves of it...in fact, for us to do the very thing that he came to save us from; our works and the effort to use them to pay for eternity. Because whether we use them to pay for it initially or use them to keep us in it, it's still paying for it. It's just a matter of semantics, and the bible doesn't make that distinction. We do. Grace is the freedom from that. And grace frees us to do anything, everything for God, but do it with a completely free and open heart, full of love and without fear that if it isn't good enough, that gift will be taken away.
The distinction between being reckoned righteous - Someone else's righteousness imputed by faith to our account - and the idea of becoming righteous - maybe as a process, combining efforts from various sources - is very important. One is right; the other is wrong. One is Biblical; the other is not. (My apologies if I have not been following this thread as closely as I might have done.)
 

marks

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Looking at the passage, I thought it best to start in vs 14.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
upload_2019-11-26_15-7-37.png
Naturally this jumps into the middle of a thought. Paul has just written urging the readers to yield themselves to God as those that are alive from the dead, instead of yielding to sin.

Here the reason is given, sin shall not be your master (future tense), therefore, you CAN submit yourself to God.

And the follow up thought is again, a reason or foundation given for the preceding, you are not under law, but are under grace (present tense, now).

Law and sin are solidly linked. Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 5 teaches it is by grace we stand.

Law promotes sin. Grace is being able to live according to Christ Who lives in me.

Being no longer under law (to the Jew), no longer trying to appease God by good behavior (gentile) (Romans 2), the motions of sin lose their power, the body is no longer able to control us (earlier in the chapter)

The state of being under grace means that sin is not our master. The alternative given is to be under Law, through with comes “the motions of sin” which work in our bodies.

So there is a life of being under grace, and a life of being under Law, and the life under Law is associated with sin, while the life under Grace makes sin no more our master.

Much love!
 

marks

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15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
upload_2019-11-26_15-19-19.png

A question asked and answered, shall we in the future sin, since we are under grace and not law? God forbid is translated from "No may it be becoming". "May it be becoming" being a Middle/Deponant verb, can be either passive or reflective. So one way to understand it would be to say, No, it can't be made to be that way, or, No, it doesn't become that way of itself. A vernacular translation would be to say, it doesn't work that way.

We have become free from sin, therefore sin won't have mastery over us, as we are under grace, and grace doesn't become sinfulness. We can here look back to ch. 5, it is by grace that we stand.

Much love!
 

marks

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16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
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Have you not come to that awareness that to whom you are right now presenting yourselves to as slaves, whether to obedience or righteousness, you are right now a slave to that one?

Again, two alternatives. Just as before, Law and Grace, now here Sin and Righteousness.

My thought . . . Law works sin, and Grace works righteousness.

From the text . . .

Grace does not work sin, if you are presenting yourself to sin, to obey sin, you are sin's slave. The same is true of righteousness. A third set of alternatives, slave to sin, or slave to righteousness.

The question is asked . . . should slave be understood as a metaphor, or a reality? Does the slave to sin have the choice to not sin? Is sin as your master an overlord that gives suggestions? Orders that may be disobeyed?


17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
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Grace be to God”, there's something to meditate on! Because you were slaves, which of course signifies that you are not now slaves, you were slaves of sin, and you are not, because there was a type of teaching, tupon, given to you, which you obeyed from the heart.

So there is the transition here from a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness due to obedience to the teaching.

I think the question being explored in this thread is, does this refer to continuing obedience, that is to say, our daily behavior, or to the obedience of faith? The only clue I see in this verse is that “ye obey” is an Aorist tense, generally indicating a past act.

In general, I see the flow of the passage so far as, there is Law and Grace, Law works sin in us, we being corrupt, while Grace does not, being the power of God. There is slavery to Sin, and to Righteousness. One ceases to be a slave to sin and becomes a slave of righteousness.

That transition is by obeying from the heart this “type of teaching”.

Much love!
 

Zachary

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In general, I see the flow of the passage so far as,
there is Law and Grace, Law works sin in us, we being corrupt,
while Grace does not, being the power of God.
There is slavery to Sin, and to Righteousness.
One ceases to be a slave to sin and becomes a slave of righteousness.
That transition is by obeying from the heart this “type of teaching”.
Sorry, the above is confusing to me.

Romans 6 ...

WARNING: Being under grace is NO excuse to continue to sin.
WARNING: Do NOT (continue to) be slaves of sin.
WARNING: BE slaves of obedience (v.16).
WARNING: BE slaves of righteousness (v.19).

Since these believers are slaves of sin,
how could they possibly be slaves of righteousness (v.17)?

Since these believers are slaves of sin,
how could they possibly be slaves of God (v.22)?

Total nonsense!
Except for theoretically, potentially, technically, etc.
I.E. verses 17 and 22 are NOT TRUE in reality!
Anyone here into reality?

And it's all because Paul always majors in
edification, exhortation, encouragement, etc.
... with his warnings tactfully mixed in.

As per usual, it's up to the Holy Spirit to reveal spiritual Truth.
It's not by reading black words on white paper.
.
 
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marks

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19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
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God is teaching us in human terms due to our “infirmity”, that is, the feebleness and inherent weakness to being in flesh bodies.

Of interest is that God tells these to whom He has just said that they have been made free from sin, and have become slaves of righteousness, to now present their “members” as slaves to righteousness into holiness. Members, literally, body parts.

We have become slaves of righteousness, and we are instructed to present the parts of our bodies as slaves to righteousness. Much like Romans 12, present your bodies a living sacrifice.

Much love!
 

marks

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20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
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Someone already put this well, I think, free from righteousness like a fish is free from the sky.

A past state. Slaves to sin with no ties or obligation to righteousness.


21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
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God calls us to reflect . . . what good was that life anyway? You're ashamed of all that stuff! It all leads to death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
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Now, having been made free from sin, and having been enslaved to God, you are now having fruit unto holiness, which ends in eternal life.

What your enslavement to sin brought you was shame, and sin unto sin, but your enslavement to God brings you fruit unto holiness.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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What sin earns you is death, but God gives eternal life. This is a “charisma”, the gift of God to effect a purpose, eternal life given in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Much love!
 

Naomi25

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Horray! Four substantive posts! : ) Naomi, thank you so much for taking the time to interact with me on this. I don't seem to be getting much genuine theological exchange from anyone yet, and I was thinking of reposting it in the debate forum with a much more provocative title if I didn't get more response.

But listen, I'm going to be working harder over the next two days than I will all year, so it may be a few days before I can read through everything and respond properly. But be patient. I don't think I could have found a better person to be discussing this subject matter with intellectually.

God bless, and talk to you soon!
Ah, God's timing at work! I'm going to be out all day, and have just done a screaming fly-by of the forum to let you know like-wise! It might be a day or so until I find the time to get back to our conversation, but I'm most certainly be back as I am enjoying it! I so very rarely get the opportunity to get to dig into issues with real grit without things getting heated, so I'm so very glad that we can just chat on how we see the passage, rather than feel we must insult each other in our effort to do so! Hope your busy days go well!
 

Naomi25

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It's a present thing until you become a habitual sinner, fall away from the faith, etc.
.
But, you will note that the passage doesn't actually say that Christians will become habitual sinners. The assumption that Christians can, or will, turn to sin more than they will turn to Christ is one that is read into the passage. And, as I mentioned in my conversation with HIH, with other scriptures that promise that Christ is both 'author and finisher' of our faith, that he will never let those he has go, and will raise them up on the last day, or that the Spirit dwelling within us now, is the promise of what we shall receive in the future...I'm just unsure how we can go back to Romans 6:15-23 and even conceive of 'reading into' that text this notion. It's not there to begin with, and the rest of scripture would seem to deny it.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Hi marks! Thanks for your participation, man!

Much of it is eloquently written. I especially like the boxes that provide images of the original Greek. The one for v.15 was revealing. I quoted the KJV (revised with the "ye"s taken out of it, LoL), but obviously the KJV drops the ball when it comes to the translation of "God forbid." Maybe that was a common saying in the 1600s or something, but "May it not be!" is an actual translation.

There's a few statements you make that we can go over together to start with, but as I was telling Naomi, you'll have to be patient with me. I'm busy atm. But I will get there eventually if you can wait : )

Blessings in Christ, my brother, and thank you for posting your work!
 

Naomi25

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The distinction between being reckoned righteous - Someone else's righteousness imputed by faith to our account - and the idea of becoming righteous - maybe as a process, combining efforts from various sources - is very important. One is right; the other is wrong. One is Biblical; the other is not. (My apologies if I have not been following this thread as closely as I might have done.)
You're right. I think the problem comes and the waters get murky because the bible does speak of works and of Christians becoming more righteous in their lives. But, its as you say, it important to know that salvation comes only from our being reckoned righteous. But once that exchange has taken place, once grace has truly made its mark on our lives, we are free to move forwards in love. Grace and love always draw people towards action; love towards God and towards others. Fruit naturally flows out of this. Not in order for us to earn something, to keep something, but in gladness, in response. When someone does something amazing for us, we don't usually just shrug and grunt. We smile, we hug, we thank and often we naturally want to do something wonderful in return. Not because we feel we have to, but in our love for that person, we want to respond. And in that loving back and forth, that giving of ourselves, that unselfish response, we are loving God and neighbor more than ourselves and becoming more Christ-like. Any action done because we must, in order to keep something, to earn something...there is necessarily going to be a little fear, a little begrudgement involved. That's not grace!
 
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brakelite

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@Hidden In Him hi again. I've been a bit to busy to focus on this, but I do have an observation which I shall expand on later.
When we look at scripture and begin to dissect sometimes complicated and controversial doctrines such as you tagged...works/grace...etc. I think we need to bear in mind the big picture and view matters in the context of the universal battle of good and evil and the place we have in choosing whose side we want to align ourselves with. The book of Romans, among others, is written with the express purpose of presenting both sides on the conflict, challenging us to choose the right one, and the consequences of making the wrong choice. Romans 6 in particular reveals how we align ourselves with whichever choice we do make, and that is through surrender. We were born on one side...we must die and be born again, surrendering to the other.
This is war. But it isn't our fight, and the victory is already won for us and if we are willing to concede defeat regarding our own selfish motives and self will, that victory may become ours.
 

charity

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Ok, I understand what you are saying here, but in Romans 6:15-23 the analogy is used not to teach we are more than slaves but rather adopted sons. It is used to warn what will happen if we go back to serving our former master of sin. This is what is suggested by v.15-16, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid. Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves slaves to obey, his slaves you are to whom you obey; whether [as a slave] of sin unto death, or [as a slave] of obedience unto righteousness?" These sentences imply that we can indeed go back to serving sin, and as Peter said, those who do are like a dog returning to their vomit, or a pig to wallowing in the mud. So, too, is a man freed from enslavement to sin through Christ who returns to serving sin despite being freed from it. And in such a state, not serving the Lord who delivered him but returning to his former master who brought him only shame, his end will be to be paid by the master whom he was truly serving. I understand fully that if we sin we have an advocate with the Father, but at the same time Jesus is not called our Lord in name only. He is to be our Lord in reality, for if He is not, we have no rightful place in His kingdom.

About the adoption analogy, I think Romans teaches something similar in Chapter 8:
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if through the Spirit you do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For you have not received the Spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Now, suppose the adopted son refuses to suffer with Him. Suppose he denies Him before men to avoid enduring persecution. Is he still counted worthy to be called a son? And maybe more to your argument, what about the adopted son who lives after the flesh and does NOT mortify the deeds of the body? As adopted sons we are called to conform to the image of our Father, and that does not mean physically but rather in how we conduct ourselves in our everyday affairs. Would we still be counted worthy to be called His true sons if we never did conform ourselves to His image, but went back to walking in the image of the evil one who formed our behavior before we were adopted?

Hello there, @Hidden In Him,

As you have said, there are two illustrations given in Romans 6:16 -7:6, the one of 'Master' and the other of 'Husband', marked by the words, 'Know ye not?' In verses 6:16 and 7:1. The first one is spoken especially to the Gentiles among Paul's hearers, who had never been under law; and and the second to the Jews among them, who had been under the law. These two companies, although saved by the same great Sacrifice, and by the same faith, through the same grace, nevertheless had their own separate problems.

With the question of the dominion of sin, death, and law. The problems of both Jew and Gentile were much the same when the matter was limited to the dominion of sin and death, therefore the opening section of this chapter (Rom. 6:1-14) which deals with this twofold dominion is not divided into two parts, one for Gentile believers, and one for Jewish believers. The section under debate here though deals with the dominion of law, this being not a matter of conscience for the Gentile, could be explained to them along the lines of the setting free of slaves, which for them was a matter of everyday occurrence: but for the Jew, though a believer, anything which appeared to set aside the law of God was looked upon with suspicion, and considered almost blasphemy. So this second section is divided into two parts. To the Gentile Paul speaks 'after the manner of men', and to the Jew he speaks to those who acknowledge the law. To the Gentile he uses the figure of master and slave; to the Jew the figure of husband and wife. In both cases he brings the fact of death to bear upon the claims of the master or husband, and to both he reveals the glorious possibilities of life.

'But God be thanked,
that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart
that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin,
ye became the servants of righteousness.

(Rom 6:17-18)

'For when we were in the flesh,
the motions of sins, which were by the law,
did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law,
that being dead wherein we were held;
that we should serve in newness of spirit,
and not in the oldness of the letter.'

(Rom 7:5-6)

Praise God!

Our standing before God is sure, because it is based on the promises of God in Christ Jesus.
Our state is spoken of in relation to service, and will be judged accordingly.

There are no warnings here for the believer in Christ, only blessed assurance concerning the grace in which he stands.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves slaves to obey, his slaves you are to whom you obey; whether [as a slave] of sin unto death, or [as a slave] of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members slaves to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members slaves to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit then did you have in those things whereof you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Greetings all! Seems like the debate over if works are necessary for salvation has been the topic of choice lately, so I thought maybe we could focus on a particular passage and take it apart together and analyze it. Actually dealing with the scriptures is better than just disagreeing back and forth, so please give me your interpretations of this entire passage, verse by verse, in its context.

I've seen both sides cite the last verse in this passage as supporting their position, so if you respond, please make sure to give your interpretation of what that verse means also.

Blessings in Christ! And may we all be edified from studying this passage in-depth together!
Hidden In Him : )
Starting in verse 1, Paul's point is even though Christians are saved by grace that does not give the Christian the right to sin. Christians are those who are dead to sin Romans 6:1-2

Romans 6:3-7 Paul points out here a Christian is one who has been baptized into the death of Christ where the old man of sin died, was buried in a watery grave and raised up from that watery grave to walk in newness of life and is freed from sin/justified.

Romans 6:8-14 Paul warns Christians to not let sin reign in their mortal bodies, not let sin have dominion over you.

Romans 6:15 shall Christians sin because they are under grace? GOD FORBID.

Romans 6:16 each person is serving one of two masters, either a person will be lost serving sin unto death or saved by serving obedience unto righteousness.

Romans 6:17-18 Paul shows how those Christians in Rome had been saved by obeying (obedience unto righteousness). They had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine then they were freed from sin/justified.

Romans 6:20-23 Paul continues to show how those in Rome went from being servants of unrighteousness to servants of righteousness being freed from sin serving God.

Short synopsis:

Paul is saying grace alone will not save. It takes both grace and obedience to God's will to be saved. If one is not obeying God's will then one is serving sin unto death. It takes obedience unto righteousness and continued obedience for one to become and remain justified. If the Christian quits obeying God then he has turned back to serving sin unto death, returned to being a servant of unrighteousness.

Order of events for those in Rome:
1) were servants of unrighteousness (serving sin unto death)
2) they then obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (serve obedience unto righteousness)
3) then freed from sin/justified

Obedience to God's will, "obedience unto righteousness" verse 16 does not earn justification. One's obedience will not be perfect so one will be in need of God's grace. Therefore it takes obedience to keep from serving sin unto death and God's grace for those times one's obedience is not perfect. God's grace will not save those who refuse to obey God for they are serving sin unto death.

Hence salvation requires God's grace and man's obedience and is not by grace alone for again grace will not save those who chose to disobey God for their master is serving sin unto death and not obedience unto righteousness.

There is a difference between works done to earn some thing and obedience. Obedience is a necessary condition God has placed upon His free gift of salvation. Even though Paul says those in Rome "obeyed from the heart" Paul does NOT say their obedience earned them justification. Obedience was a necessary condition God has placed upon His gift of justification.

Romans 6 is devastating to Martin Luther's "faith only" philosophy.
 
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logabe

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@Hidden In Him hi again. I've been a bit to busy to focus on this, but I do have an observation which I shall expand on later.
When we look at scripture and begin to dissect sometimes complicated and controversial doctrines such as you tagged...works/grace...etc. I think we need to bear in mind the big picture and view matters in the context of the universal battle of good and evil and the place we have in choosing whose side we want to align ourselves with. The book of Romans, among others, is written with the express purpose of presenting both sides on the conflict, challenging us to choose the right one, and the consequences of making the wrong choice. Romans 6 in particular reveals how we align ourselves with whichever choice we do make, and that is through surrender. We were born on one side...we must die and be born again, surrendering to the other.
This is war. But it isn't our fight, and the victory is already won for us and if we are willing to concede defeat regarding our own selfish motives and self will, that victory may become ours.

I like that!
The wages of sin (breaking the Law) is death. Paul is speaking to people that
were justified. So that death was the 2nd death. The first death was Adam's
sin, if you eat of the fruit you shall surely die. Paul said, to be carnally minded
is death. We know that Adam didn't die physically when he disobeyed God, but
he did become carnally minded. In essence, he became subject to physical death
or mortality. So the 1st death was pass down to every generation.

But Paul was talking about the 2nd death when he wrote this book. How do you
know? Because he was talking to people who had already been justified. Should
we continue in sin after being justified by faith? We are justified in order for us
to start walking down a path to righteousness, which results in sanctification. Our
justification reverses the effect of Adam's sin, but our sanctification, which is living
our life after justification, results in our reward of the 1st resurrection.

In other words, if we learn in this life to listen and obey God's Law (Sanctification),
and we don't practice lawlessness, we will receive immortality and become a king
& a priest in the next age (Rev. 20:6).

But if we choose to do whatever we like and continue to practice breaking God's Law,
we will miss the 1st resurrection and the king and priest order (Rev. 20:5). So the
wages of our personal sins is the second death which God will deal with after every
knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord.

Your sanctification has already been established, but you have to choose to walk in it.
You have to understand that it is God that is doing it and not yourself. Knowing that
God can change you into his nature and his character by believing on His Son.

What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
 

Zachary

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This is war. But it isn't our fight, and the victory is already won for us
and if we are willing to concede defeat regarding our own selfish motives
and self will, that victory may become ours.
I guess you haven't read about the weapons of our warfare (2 Corinthians 10:3-6).
The church today is in one horrible condition!
The shepherds have abandoned their sheep for greener pastures (money).
But, in the end, the sheep are responsible for their eternal destination.
Don't ever tell Jesus that you were never warned!
.
 

marks

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Since these believers are slaves of sin,
I think we'll be pretty far apart on some doctrinces if you are thinking that a believer can be a slave to sin. You only think you are. The truth is that in Christ you are set free.

It may not be easy, I can attest! The corruption of the flesh may be severe! But just the same, I do not believe someone who is In Christ, a new creation, is a slave to sin.

Since these believers are slaves of sin,
how could they possibly be slaves of righteousness (v.17)?

You were slaves to sin, but you have obeyed from the heart the teaching . . .

Past tense slaves to sin, now present tense slaves to righteousness, Vs. 22, now being made free from sin.

There is a transition, that we were in the past slaves to sin, I believe due to the corruption in our bodies, our minds, and we have nothing else to work with, so that's what we were, slaves to sin, and we always acted according to that reality.

But now, we've been born anew, this time, not from a corrupted Adamic creation, but now born from a righteous and holy God, sharing that nature, and not the corruption handed down from Adam.

I.E. verses 17 and 22 are NOT TRUE in reality!
Anyone here into reality?

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
This is not true??

I maintain that this idea that we are not free from sin is deception, not that you mean to deceive, the flesh wants to deceive us.

Ephesians 4
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

The unsaved, given over to lasciviousness, but not us. That's not how we've learned about Jesus. Here's reality. That we cast off that old life, which is corrupt after the pattern of the "deceitful lusts". That we get our mind restored to what it should be. That we wear the new creation, who God made us, who now share God's pattern, being created in righteousness and true holiness.

You who are in Christ have been recreated in righteousness and true holiness. Your flesh desires lie to you, trying to drag you into sin. But you've been made free from that, so we can stop doing those things, and star doing the right things, after all, we're all part of each other.

Much love!