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Featured Interpreting Romans 6:23 In Context

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hidden In Him, Nov 21, 2019.

  1. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves slaves to obey, his slaves you are to whom you obey; whether [as a slave] of sin unto death, or [as a slave] of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness.
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members slaves to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members slaves to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit then did you have in those things whereof you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Greetings all! Seems like the debate over if works are necessary for salvation has been the topic of choice lately, so I thought maybe we could focus on a particular passage and take it apart together and analyze it. Actually dealing with the scriptures is better than just disagreeing back and forth, so please give me your interpretations of this entire passage, verse by verse, in its context.

    I've seen both sides cite the last verse in this passage as supporting their position, so if you respond, please make sure to give your interpretation of what that verse means also.

    Blessings in Christ! And may we all be edified from studying this passage in-depth together!
    Hidden In Him : )
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
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  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Romans 6 is about the first step in the journey of faith. From righteousness unto holiness.

    It is actually...eternal life IN Jesus Christ. (not just through)

    The eternal kind of life is found by entering into Jesus Christ....to abide in holiness with God in Zion. To walk as Jesus walked...as holy as God is holy. ...without any spot or wrinkle of sin.

    What a great salvation Jesus suffered so much to bring us.
    All praise to our God.
     
  3. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    OK, all of Paul's warnings in Romans 6 ...
    cannot be washed away by mis-understanding 6:23 ...
    - no matter how much you would like to do so!
    - no matter how deceived you have been by Satan through your church!
    - no matter how many false doctrines you have been taught wherever!
    etc.
     
  4. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    Of course eternal life is IN Jesus Christ.
    Actually, He is the GIVER of eternal life (ref: several passages).

    Butski, it is under the condition that you do your part!
    IT IS ALL CONDITIONAL ... This is what the NT is ALL about.
    I guess we'll need to go into ALL of the details, right?
    .
     
  5. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Guys, I like your responses. But now, in the OP I am asking all who reply to give me a verse by verse explanation of the entire passage. That was the whole purpose of this thread, LoL.

    I know it is not beyond you, so give it a shot : )
     
  6. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    Verses by verse explanation ... no thanks!
     
  7. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Boo! : )

    See, the reason I ask for that is because everyone can give what appears to be a reasonable interpretation of a single verse as a stand-alone. But the key to good interpretation is being able to give sound exegesis of the entire passage that surrounds it, i.e. interpretation of a verse in its broader context. This should be especially true of verses one quotes as supporting a particular position.

    I believe you and others quoted some of these verses in your most recent thread, so this would apply to both you and them : )

    Not trying to give you a hard time, as I generally agree with you theologically on the matters discussed here. But this is a way of seeing who can actually back up what they teach with good, sound exegesis.

    Come on, Zachary. You can do it man! Take your time on it, and present it only when you've had the time to really go over every verse!
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    GRACE IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    ONE CAN EITHER SERVE SIN OR SERVE RIGHTEOUSNESS
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL = SERVING RIGHTEOUSNESS
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    BELIEVERS HAVE BEEN SET FREE FROM THE POWER OF SIN
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    BELIEVERS ARE COMMANDED TO BE RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

    THE UNSAVED ARE IN BONDAGE TO SIN
    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

    HABITUAL SINNING LEADS TO DEATH (FIRST AND SECOND)
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

    SERVANTS OF GOD PRACTICE HOLINESS
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    ETERNAL LIFE IS GOD'S GIFT TO THE ONE WHO BELIEVES ON CHRIST
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
     
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  9. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I knew I could count on at least one member giving me verse by verse exegesis.
    Let me get back to you, Enoch. I'd like to see if any others will give it a try.
     
  10. Deborah_

    Deborah_ Well-Known Member

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    What an invitation! I can't resist...

    15 Paul’s question is: Can a Christian sin with impunity, because they are guaranteed forgiveness? Does grace undermine ethical responsibility?
    The answer is a resounding NO - because we are not free agents.

    16 There is no such thing as complete human autonomy (total freedom from all influences and constraints).
    We are all slaves, either of God or of sin; there is no ‘neutral’ position. (John 8:34)
    In Roman times, people would often sell themselves into slavery voluntarily (because of extreme poverty). And conversion is a similar act of self-surrender.

    17 Christianity is not just a belief system; it is a way of life under the authority of Christ.

    18 What we have experienced is a change in ownership (in more modern terminology, we are ‘under new management’). (Exodus 6:6,7)
    Our original master (sin) no longer has any authority over us - but our new Master has the right to demand our full loyalty and complete obedience.

    19 Paul is using slavery as an analogy to assist our understanding; but, like all analogies, it should not be applied too rigidly.
    As Christians, we should serve our Lord to the very best of our ability, pursuing holiness with the same zeal that we previously invested in our unworthy desires.
    Instead of surrendering ourselves to sin and being sucked into a downward spiral of ever-increasing lawlessness, we must surrender ourselves to righteousness - which draws us into an increasingly God-centred life.

    20 Actions have consequences, in the spiritual realm as well as in the material world.
    Sin and righteousness are not so much things that we do as powers that rule us - and they are mutually exclusive!
    We are accustomed to the slavery of sin, because we were born into it. So we call it ‘freedom’.

    21 Sin feels ‘normal’ and natural; living in sin requires no moral effort. Only after our eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit do we see sin for what it really is.
    The ‘freedom’ of sin is a false freedom; all we get from it is a guilty conscience, moral degradation, and (eventually) eternal death.

    22 The only way to escape from the clutches of sin is to become a servant of God - a ‘slavery’ that is actually liberating. (John 8:36)

    23 Sin may be profitable in worldly terms - but it deprives you of what is really valuable. Those who invest in it will reap a bitter harvest. (Proverbs 11:18,19)
    If we serve sin, we shall get what we deserve; but if we serve God, He will give us what we do not deserve and could never earn for ourselves - eternal life!
    This gift is available only through Jesus Christ!
     
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  11. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    We are in full agreement here. :) Yours I will definitely have some responses to.
    Thanks for the post, Deborah!
     
  12. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    The whole Chapter is important if you're going to discuss the subject there. Even the previous Roman Chapters have direct relevance also. At the end of Romans 5, Paul is discussing how Christ Jesus accomplished the working of the 'free gift' unto justification. The whole purpose of Christ's coming to die on the cross was to defeat death and the devil for us, and for the remission of sins of those who believe. In Romans 6 Paul shows that still means we are to try and flee from sin.

    Rom 6
    6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
    4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
    9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
    10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    Since we are to reckon ourselves to be dead unto sin, we are not to let sin reign over us. That does not mean we won't ever sin again, because while we are in these flesh bodies we will still sin. Jesus provided a way to have Him cleanse us of future sin. It's called repentance and asking Him forgiveness, which is what Apostle John showed we are to do per 1 John 1.


    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Brethren need to quit thinking in absolutes on this, because our flesh is not... of the heavenly order of things. It is basically an instrument of death, destined to perish, faulty, undependable. If we live by our flesh we will continually be let down. Apostle Paul shows this contrast between flesh and spirit, making it clear here in the KJV. Newer Bible versions don't, which I believe is a cause for many brethren's confusion on this matter today.


    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

    Paul has to bring up this matter of the infirmity of our flesh as a contrast so we understand the difference between following iniquity and instead yielding to a life of righteousness and holiness.


    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    KJV


    Simple. If we follow a life of sin, the wage for it is death, even eternal death. But if we remain in Christ, then we have the gift of God of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Paul reiterates this further in Romans 8.

    Rom 8:1-14
    8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    KJV
     
  14. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    C'mon, man ... I've gone over every verse years ago!
    And what's important is NOT exegisis, but what the Spirit reveals to us!

    FYI, Paul was trained by Jesus Himself for 17 years in the desert places
    before he began his ministry to the Gentiles (Galatians 1:18, 2:1).
    IOW, he was told HOW to deal with the churches.

    Throughout his epistles ...
    Paul mixes his dire warnings about losing salvation ... in with ...
    MANY copious edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc.
    Almost to the extent that the warnings MUST be revealed by the Spirit.
    IOW, the warnings are "almost hidden" in amongst everything else!

    E.G. Romans 6 ... most believers are so brainwashed with Satan's false doctrines
    that they IGNORE verses that are contrary to what they've been deceived with.

    6:18 Believers who are slaves of sin are also slaves of righteousness?
    6:22 Believers who are slaves of sin are also slaves of God?
    C'mon, give me a break.

    The red mixed in with the blue ... which are you going to believe?
    .
     
  15. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    See, you're jumping in with your false doctrine (without thinking)
    ... that which you've been deceived with.

    6:23b doesn't say WHO gets the gift, etc. through Christ.
    But, the rest of the NT makes it clear.

    the wages of sin is death ... for everyone
    the gift of God is eternal life ... for those few who have true saving belief/faith,
    which is proven by being faithful, obedient, enduring to the end, etc.
    .
     
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  16. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your work, Davy. Haven't read this yet, but I will be looking forward to going over it and discussing it.

    Be blessed!
     
  17. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    LoL! I know how it is. Not everyone is into acute analysis of the word : )

    Just a word of advice, though. The argument that exegesis isn't important but only what the Spirit reveals runs kinda counter to how I have found Him operate in me. His revelations to me have always included exegesis, and were supported by strict analysis of the word in the original.

    But to each his own. That's not always an evangelist's thing, and according to your Profile that appears to be what you are.

    Blessings in Christ!
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  18. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    The subject of this passage is: Being transformed from walking in the flesh, to walking in the spirit, anew.

    The object of this passage is: That you know where you are in that transformation.

    The message of verse 23 is: A comparison for clarity by contrasting evil with good.
     
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  19. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    Yup, I did go a wee bit overboard.
    God really does reward diligent digging with revelation.
    (IMO, digging in original languages is not necessary.
    Cannot the Spirit reveal the meaning behind English words!)
    Also, perhaps some get more revelation than others
    ... depending on the Lord's call on their lives.
    .
     
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  20. Zachary

    Zachary Active Member

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    Remain in Christ ???
    Yes, of course ... but WHAT exactly is required ???
    This is the whole crux of the problem !!!
    Believers do NOT understand WHAT is required !!!
    Something is required !!! ... WHAT is it ???
    C'mon, let's get real !!!
    .
     
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