Interpreting Romans 6:23 In Context

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Hidden In Him

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This is completely false. There are only two options: (1) either eternal life is a pure GIFT of the grace of God or (2) eternal life is earned, or inherited, or deserved.

Romans 6:23 plainly states that eternal life is the GIFT of God. Ephesians 2:8,9 plainly stated that salvation is the GIFT of God. Acts 2:38 plainly states that the Holy Spirit is the GIFT of God. Gifts from God cannot be earned or merited, otherwise they would be rewards, not gifts. This ties in with the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. So how can "a free gift" (which you admit) depend on what you do or not do?

Well, it's really quite simple. Btw, hope you're having a good evening.

Let's take the baptism in the Holy Spirit first. Regarding this, does not scripture point out that God specifically chose Cornelius for it, based on his conduct? If so, why? Because his conduct pleased the Lord. This is at the heart of the issue every time. If such conduct on Cornelius' part had been irrelevant, why include them in the narrative?

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. (Acts 10:1-4)

Now, concerning salvation, the same thing is implied. Ephesians 2:8-9 is followed by v.10:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

So then salvation is a gift of God, not of works. Why? Because we are His workmanship (i.e. not our own workmanship), created in Christ Jesus unto good works. But what about those who do not walk in the works He created us to walk in? It is clearly implied in the text that this is possible, or Paul would not have reminded them in the very next verse not to walk in sin anymore. If they do, they will displease the Lord, and risk Him rescinding the gift of forgiveness.

Same thing with the parable of the unforgiving debtor. You have a man whose Lord expected Him to walk in the same forgiveness shown to him. But that servant did not "walk in the works prepared for him to walk in." Instead, he had the man who owed him almost nothing thrown in jail until he should pay back every dime. The servant's debt is interpreted by nearly all to represent his sin debt, and this debt was rescinded by his lord because the man's response to the grace shown to him was to walk in a manner that greatly displeased the lord. Did he somehow earn the forgiveness of his debt? No. It was a gift. But he had that gift rescinded by displeasing his lord.

So the Lord gives and the Lord takes away as it pleases Him, whether regarding the baptism in the Holy Spirit or salvation. And just because we please Him through our obedience does not mean we have "earned" the gifts He gives us.

I will acknowledge one thing, however. "Reward" is a misleading term here. Paul was careful not to use it, simply stating that "the end" will be eternal life for those who prove to be slaves of God. So I think some rewording might be in order in my previous post(s).

Blessings in Christ!

 

Naomi25

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Now before presenting mine, let me first cut right to the chase and present the crux of my interpretation, which is as follows:
Given the symbolism of masters and slaves used in this passage, v.23 suggests that while eternal life is indeed a free gift of God, receiving it will depend upon whether we gave ourselves to serving Him as Lord or not. Those who fail to do so will not inherit eternal life.

My explanation of v.23 will explain it in more detail. Feel free to comment on my work, and I look forward to reading and commenting on yours.
Hidden

Hi HIH, I'm also hoping an interesting, thoughtful conversation can come from this passage. It certainly touches on some important issues!
I thought, perhaps, that while indeed the whole passage is important, trying to analyze everyone's thought, verse by verse, might start to make all our posts very long indeed. So, I've just decided to focus in on the bit that I suppose you could say I would like to draw you out on a little more, if I could.
You say that you believe that eternal life is indeed a free gift from God, but then you seem to go on and place conditions upon that gift, and I confess, I can't see how the two can occupy the same space at the same time. Paul tells us earlier in Romans:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, -Romans 4:2–5

This seems to suggest that we must jettison the idea that the free gift is something we can lay claim to in our works. If we work, even in our obedience, we have something to boast in before God, and thus the free gift becomes something earned, not given freely.

I believe that the passage you highlighted for us to exegete, is not speaking about obedience FOR salvation, or even to KEEP salvation. It is speaking of sanctification, of our walk in this life; which by necessity means how we live; for ourselves, or for our Lord. Even saved we can and must make that choice, as it will determine the sort of life we live and the sort of impact we have on others. We know that the more we turn from sin and turn to Christ our lives become more joyful, more full, more rewarding. The things of this world progressively lose their grip on us. We all know that there are times when we yield to temptation and find ourselves staring at the sins that once enslaved us. The promise of God, through his free gift, is that because we are no longer slaves to sin, we can walk away from it. The idea of sanctification is that the more we choose God over sin, the less our old sin bothers us.


Romans 6:15-23:

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
- Now notice the language here. He now references the distinct rewards for serving these two masters. The reward for serving sin will be death, but the reward for serving God, righteousness, and obedience (v.22, v.18-19, v.16), will be the gift of God, i.e. eternal life through Christ Jesus. It will not be earned through works because it is a gift of God that can only be received through His grace. But it will only be given to those who made themselves slaves of righteousness, and walked as such. Those who called Him "Lord" but did not serve Him will not receive the gift of eternal life when all is said and done. They proved in this life that they preferred serving sin and disobedience as their master rather than God.
You say that this verse highlights the rewards of serving either master. However...I'm not sure that it's exactly that. When the word 'wages' is used for sin, it's used in a payment form...the 'payment, salary, reward'. So, while yes, in a way it means 'reward', it means it in the way that he earned the outcome...he placed upon the payment scales his sin.
Then, when we come to the righteous side of things, we don't see a 'reward' structure at all. And this is why its so important to see they payment/reward angle. Because opposite the very clear 'sinful earning of death', we see 'free gift of eternal life'. There is nothing here that says a Christian is 'rewarded' by their obedience with eternal life. No. It is purely a 'free gift'. That is very stark difference, and I think it's worth pointing out.
 
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Naomi25

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Hi, sister! Great to have you post. It's a pleasure reading posts that are so well-written : )

Now about your above quote, you have Paul stating that they were already redeemed. This may get a little technical here, but when the NT mentioned redemption, the vast majority of times it was referring to a future event; our bodily resurrection at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ (see Luke 21:28, Romans 8:23, Ephesians 1:14). Occasionally it was used of an event that has already occurred, but in such contexts Paul was referencing the harrowing of Hades, where the saints of the OT had indeed already been redeemed out of the underworld. Thus, to teach that the church in Heaven and the church on earth were one in Christ, Paul was likening his readers as having already been joined with them in Heaven, and now seated with them in heavenly places (see Ephesians 1:3, 7, and Colossians 1:14, 12-13).
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. Many times the NT discusses justification it is a present thing. Some examples:

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. -Romans 5:1–5

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.-Romans 5:9–11

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, -Romans 8:1–3

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight -Ephesians 1:7–8

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. -Ephesians 1:11–14


He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. -Colossians 1:13–14

There are so many more, but trying to list them all would be pointless. Suffice to say, the NT speaks of our salvation, our redemption as now! The consummation...now, that is still future, but that is different than salvation or, as its sometimes called redemption. I suppose the terms get a bit iffy. Sometimes the term 'redemption' does refer to the final 'redemption' of both our bodies and the earth. But it also is used to refer to our salvation...the justification that takes place when we place our trust in Christ. Justification is what comes first, which is all God's work...the free gift. Then comes sanctification, which we do play a part in, but it also requires God's work in the Holy Spirit, as we are still in the flesh and stumble often. Then comes glorification, when we receive our new bodies and sin will be no more.

I would say in light of these things that our physical, bodily redemption is still technically ahead of us, and as per the things I mentioned in Post #37 and #47, contingent upon whether we receive the gift of eternal life when all is said and done or not.

What do you think of my interpretation on that?
Thanks again for posting, and wonderful hearing from you again!

I think I might have covered this is my previous post to you (#62). But, briefly...I think there is a problem with defining something a gift, but then putting conditions upon it. If I tell my child that she can have (x), but only if she cleans her room, puts her clothes away and gets to bed on time for a whole week, (x) is not a free gift at all, it is something she earned by toeing the line. It is a reward. And a reward is NOT a gift. She gets to pat herself on the back and tell herself what a good job she did to earn (x), she gets to feel a little glow of achievement whenever she looks at (x) and enjoys it. And yes, she earned it, she did well. But....it is not a free gift.
And I just do not think scripture teaches that about the free gift at all. In fact, I think Paul goes out of his way to stress what a free gift is and isn't.
 

Enoch111

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If they do, they will displease the Lord, and risk Him rescinding the gift of forgiveness.
Where in the world are you coming up with these bizarre notions? Do you know and understand the meaning of this Scripture (Rom 11:29)?

New International Version
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
New Living Translation
For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
English Standard Version
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Berean Study Bible
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
New King James Version
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
King James Bible
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 

Hidden In Him

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You say that you believe that eternal life is indeed a free gift from God, but then you seem to go on and place conditions upon that gift, and I confess, I can't see how the two can occupy the same space at the same time. Paul tells us earlier in Romans:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, -Romans 4:2–5

Absolutely, and faith in His forgiveness and grace is what brings us INTO a relationship with Him. What I am aiming to prove out, however, is that certain expectations are placed upon the relationship once it is formed, and if not met, can cancel out the grace originally bestowed.

Take for instance the analogy in our text. The slave who does not turn to obeying his new master but continues to serve the old one (in this case, sin) will not please his new lord. In fact, it will end the relationship between them, and in the worst possible way.

This is what I believe Paul was communicating in verse 16, and why he said the wages of sin is death:
16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves slaves to obey, his slaves you are to whom you obey; whether [as a slave] of sin unto death, or [as a slave] of obedience unto righteousness?

I was also pointing to the parable of the unforgiving debtor in my previous post. Here again the debtor is forgiven purely by grace, but thereafter expectations are placed upon the relationship. The lord expects the debtor to go and show others the same mercy he was shown. When these expectations are violated, the relationship is severed and the grace is rescinded.

So too, in the parable of the talents, you have very clear expectations. The one who received the one talent received something from his lord, so this suggests that a relationship was established. But the servant in this relationship was then clearly expected to go and work with what was given to him by his lord's grace, so as to create more wealth out of what he had. When the servant did not do this, the grace was rescinded and the relationship severed.

There are others I could cite which follow the same pattern, but the one I wanted to focus on was the first one, since it is implied in the passage brought up in the OP.
I believe that the passage you highlighted for us to exegete, is not speaking about obedience FOR salvation, or even to KEEP salvation.

Well, on this, again the passage explains that the wages of sin is death:
"16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves slaves to obey, his slaves you are to whom you obey; whether [as a slave] of sin unto death, or [as a slave] of obedience unto righteousness?... 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Death here is placed here in juxtaposition to eternal life, so I do see salvation as in view here.

Same with the parable of unforgiving debtor. He is given over to the tormentors. Same with the parable of the talents. The wicked servant is cast into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

While I'm in Matthew, let me show you another example of expectations being placed on believers, this time on the disciples (Matthew 24:45-51). Jesus warned them that if they should think He was not returning for awhile and begin to spiritually abuse the people of God, He would come at a time they were not aware of and cut them in pieces and appoint them their place with the hypocrites, again where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

To me, that last phrase virtually guarantees that salvation is at issue here, although some argue it is not.
You say that this verse highlights the rewards of serving either master. However...I'm not sure that it's exactly that. When the word 'wages' is used for sin, it's used in a payment form...the 'payment, salary, reward'. So, while yes, in a way it means 'reward', it means it in the way that he earned the outcome...he placed upon the payment scales his sin.
Then, when we come to the righteous side of things, we don't see a 'reward' structure at all. And this is why its so important to see they payment/reward angle. Because opposite the very clear 'sinful earning of death', we see 'free gift of eternal life'. There is nothing here that says a Christian is 'rewarded' by their obedience with eternal life. No. It is purely a 'free gift'. That is very stark difference, and I think it's worth pointing out.

Yes, and I acknowledge this. I had to tell Enoch that "reward" was admittedly not the word to use, as it is misleading. Paul deliberately went out of his way to avoid using it when speaking of the free gift. I had to go back and change my wording in the OP.
 
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FollowHim

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15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves slaves to obey, his slaves you are to whom you obey; whether [as a slave] of sin unto death, or [as a slave] of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members slaves to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members slaves to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit then did you have in those things whereof you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Greetings all! Seems like the debate over if works are necessary for salvation has been the topic of choice lately, so I thought maybe we could focus on a particular passage and take it apart together and analyze it. Actually dealing with the scriptures is better than just disagreeing back and forth, so please give me your interpretations of this entire passage, verse by verse, in its context.

I've seen both sides cite the last verse in this passage as supporting their position, so if you respond, please make sure to give your interpretation of what that verse means also.

Blessings in Christ! And may we all be edified from studying this passage in-depth together!
Hidden In Him : )

Destinations
Paul is making a simple point, grace puts us on the right road, but it is the road that delivers us to life.
Without cleansing, a new heart, a new start, a touch of the Holy Spirit sparking us into life we could not take one step.

But without this leading to the path and us walking it, nothing matters.
I saw a show on netflixs that followed people taking car wrecks and rebuilding them.
In reality the old body shell was the design or image and most of the rebuilt car was all new.

But taking the wreck and putting it in a garage did not make it a nice new mint condition example of the design.
So equally Jesus brings us eternal life, that will grow out of our hearts if we obey and follow, walking in His ways
of repentance, forgiveness, humbleness, service, patience, faithfulness.

A few days ago a friend we were taking to church, showed part of their true motivation. It was a sad realisation of sin, and how sexuality can obscure the true foundations of a lifes walk of love and family commitment. So damaged are some, they only regard life on a physical relationship basis, not about connecting and being with people. Jesus came to be one with us, to share His heart and life, to teach us what reigning with Him in eternity truly will be. But in a real sense we need to know we are expected to be worthy of this gift and to become overcomers.

5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Rev 3

Overcoming is not a one off event, but a walk, with failures and struggles, that sees faith and truth conquer desire and delusion, to the glory of Christ, Amen.
 

FollowHim

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Are car wrecks saved, cleansed, purified, wearing white robes, singing the praises of the King?
 

Hidden In Him

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I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. Many times the NT discusses justification it is a present thing. Some examples:

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. -Romans 5:1–5

Yes! This is why I'm grateful to be discussing this. Now watch: If you read this carefully, he is referencing justification as paving the way for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, saying "since we have been (past tense) justified... we have peace with God" (a reference to the Holy Spirit), and he then again references the outpouring at the end of v.5. In other words, justification opens the door for the outpouring, and thus peace with God, but it does not guarantee salvation. This is still contingent on a proper response to grace. Hence he mentions still walking in hope of the glory of God (future tense).
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.-Romans 5:9–11

Again, notice he uses future tense when speaking in regard to their (potential) salvation, provided they endure to the end, but past tense when referencing their having received reconciliation. Reconciliation has opened the door for the grace of the Spirit's outpouring and all the promises of God found in Christ. But salvation is still referenced in the future as something they are still hoping for.
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, -Romans 8:1–3

Absolutely, only this doesn't cancel out the implications in Romans 6:15-23. A man is still a slave to that which he obeys, and if he obeys sin, the end result will be death.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight -Ephesians 1:7–8

I mentioned this verse earlier. This is one of those instances where the context is discussing the harrowing of Hades, so His reference to redemption here is more involved. Long story, LoL.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. -Ephesians 1:11–14

"guarantee of our inheritance" can be misleading here. The translator was trying to convey it as a type of down deposit, an investment in us if you will. Other translators go with the word "earnest." The seal of the Holy Spirit is a claim on ownership, but again it does not negate the freewill of men to turn aside from God and go back into the world, i.e. back to serving sin as their master and lord.
There are so many more, but trying to list them all would be pointless. Suffice to say, the NT speaks of our salvation, our redemption as now!

Again, reconciliation is now. Redemption will come at His return (Luke 21:28, Romans 8:23, Ephesians 1:14).
Sometimes the term 'redemption' does refer to the final 'redemption' of both our bodies and the earth. But it also is used to refer to our salvation

Well, I believe that the redemption of our bodies WILL be salvation : ) My contention is that in the present time, there is such a thing as presuming upon God for salvation, not taking into account the expectations involved in coming into a relationship with the True and Living God.

MAN! I knew inviting you was going to mean potentially a lot of work! : ) Oh, well. Good to be discussing this with you, Naomi, even if it means I'm going to be busy for the next month, LoL!
 
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FollowHim

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Why is Jesus the light? So we can see the fruit of evil deeds and avoid them, while walking in love and His ways.
If you know how to cross a road full of cars, walking in front of the cars as if they will not destroy you, means you are a fool.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Destinations
Paul is making a simple point, grace puts us on the right road, but it is the road that delivers us to life.
Without cleansing, a new heart, a new start, a touch of the Holy Spirit sparking us into life we could not take one step.

But without this leading to the path and us walking it, nothing matters.
I saw a show on netflixs that followed people taking car wrecks and rebuilding them.
In reality the old body shell was the design or image and most of the rebuilt car was all new.

But taking the wreck and putting it in a garage did not make it a nice new mint condition example of the design.
So equally Jesus brings us eternal life, that will grow out of our hearts if we obey and follow, walking in His ways
of repentance, forgiveness, humbleness, service, patience, faithfulness.

A few days ago a friend we were taking to church, showed part of their true motivation. It was a sad realisation of sin, and how sexuality can obscure the true foundations of a lifes walk of love and family commitment. So damaged are some, they only regard life on a physical relationship basis, not about connecting and being with people. Jesus came to be one with us, to share His heart and life, to teach us what reigning with Him in eternity truly will be. But in a real sense we need to know we are expected to be worthy of this gift and to become overcomers.

5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Rev 3

Overcoming is not a one off event, but a walk, with failures and struggles, that sees faith and truth conquer desire and delusion, to the glory of Christ, Amen.

Wonderful post! You have a gracious way with words, FollowHim. Thank you for sharing : )
Are car wrecks saved, cleansed, purified, wearing white robes, singing the praises of the King?

Some are and some aren't : ) He's still working on this one, I know that much, LoL!
Good analogy, btw.
 

Hidden In Him

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Where in the world are you coming up with these bizarre notions? Do you know and understand the meaning of this Scripture (Rom 11:29)?

New International Version
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
New Living Translation
For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
English Standard Version
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Berean Study Bible
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
New King James Version
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
King James Bible
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

ἀμεταμέλητα. The word means essentially without regret. In other words, He never regrets His gifts and callings because He desires that all would be saved. As the scripture says, "Many are called, but few are chosen." Does that mean God regrets calling many even though He knew in advance few would respond? No. They would not have even had the chance to come to Him if He had not at least tried to call them, and they would be without guilt if He never called them and yet judged them as sinners for not coming.

The translation of "irrevocable" however, is... dare I say it, truly regrettable, LoL. If taken literally, that translation suggests that God is utterly incapable of going back on a calling He has made.

I don't buy that. God is God. He can go back on any calling He chooses to.
 
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charity

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15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
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* This a continuation of the Apostles argument that we are not, 'in sin', because we died with Christ. In 6:1-11, we are shown our identification with Christ in His death and in His life.

- 6:1-3 = Death to SIN cannot entail life in SINS
- 6:4-7 = By identification with Christ in His death, and life, there cannot be continuance in sin.
- 6:8-10 = By identification with Christ in His death, and life, there must be life with God.
- 6:11 = Death to SIN entails life with God.

* In verses 6:12-14 we are told that sin no longer has dominion, because we are dead to the law. Now comes the question, 'What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? Then the answer is given, 'God forbid!'
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Hidden In Him:-
16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves slaves to obey, his slaves you are to whom you obey; whether [as a slave] of sin unto death, or [as a slave] of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness.
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* This is the explanation for the words, 'God forbid!' in verse 15
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Hidden In Him:-
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members slaves to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members slaves to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit then did you have in those things whereof you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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* Sin no longer has dominion because we are, 'alive,' in Christ.

Verse 23
* The wages of SIN (the root) is death.
* The gift of God (not wages for work done) is eternal life, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.​

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Hidden In Him

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-------------------------
* This a continuation of the Apostles argument that we are not, 'in sin', because we died with Christ. In 6:1-11, we are shown our identification with Christ in His death and in His life.

- 6:1-3 = Death to SIN cannot entail life in SINS
- 6:4-7 = By identification with Christ in His death, and life, there cannot be continuance in sin.
- 6:8-10 = By identification with Christ in His death, and life, there must be life with God.
- 6:11 = Death to SIN entails life with God.

* In verses 6:12-14 we are told that sin no longer has dominion, because we are dead to the law. Now comes the question, 'What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? Then the answer is given, 'God forbid!'
-------------------------
* This is the explanation for the words, 'God forbid!' in verse 15
-------------------------
* Sin no longer has dominion because we are, 'alive,' in Christ.

Verse 23
* The wages of SIN (the root) is death.
* The gift of God (not wages for work done) is eternal life, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.​

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks, Charity. Any comments on Posts #37, #47, or #65 you might want to share?

I'm seeking input from everyone on what they agree with and do not agree with.
Blessings.
 

Ezra

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if you will read he is saying if your trusting in the mosaic law for salvation you have fallen from grace.. question is was thes who used the law use circumcision actually chapter 5 is dealing with circumcision of the flesh which does nothing spiritually speaking . yes i have heard this scripture used many times... the only real way to fall from grace is die w/o Christ . Grace is with us even as sinners not saved . it was his grace ( not saving grace ) that kept me alive in the car wrecks i had . which could have took me out
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
 

Hidden In Him

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Well you must think you are smarter than God. It is because God is God that your ideas are NONSENSICAL.

LoL! I find this post "regrettable" as well.

Thanks for the laugh, Enoch : ) You're good for a chuckle every now and then, LoL!


Camel%2BLaughing-788434.jpg
 

Naomi25

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Absolutely, and faith in His forgiveness and grace is what brings us INTO a relationship with Him. What I am aiming to prove out, however, is that certain expectations are placed upon the relationship once it is formed, and if not met, can cancel out the grace originally bestowed.

I do understand what you are saying, and I understand that this is a very deep topic that can have many nuances. My objection to the idea that a Christian must essentially work to keep their salvation and is under the threat of being booted out of God's grace if he doesn't perform as he should, is two...no, three things. The first would be the whole meaning of 'Grace' in the first place. The other two would be these verses:

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? -Galatians 3:2–3

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” -John 6:37–40


So, to my mind, while there can be conversations over Romans 6 and the meanings on what it means to slip back towards sin, I just can't see how we can dance around the clear directives in these two passages. Paul insists that initial salvation is by the 'Spirit' with faith, and that sanctification...'being perfected' must be the same...that trying to do so 'in the flesh', which is works, cannot be done. In fact, he calls it foolish!
Then Christ tells us that those who God has determined to be Christs WILL be Christ's. And Christ will not let them go or turn them away. He WILL raise them up on the last day. And that tells us what? That it is NOT by our works, which are imperfect, but by the work of Christ, which is both perfect and sure. It is by his strength, his perfection, his works, that we are raised up on that last day, just as we are saved.


Take for instance the analogy in our text. The slave who does not turn to obeying his new master but continues to serve the old one (in this case, sin) will not please his new lord. In fact, it will end the relationship between them, and in the worst possible way.

This is what I believe Paul was communicating in verse 16, and why he said the wages of sin is death:
16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves slaves to obey, his slaves you are to whom you obey; whether [as a slave] of sin unto death, or [as a slave] of obedience unto righteousness?
I think there is a problem with ONLY holding to the slave analogy. While this passage certainly uses it, it's not the only one we see when the bible talks about the new status of the believer, and I think its important to link it in to this conversation to get the whole picture. The bible calls us adopted sons of God. We must also remember that the slavery in the bible is different than the sort of slavery that comes to our mind when we hear the word; its not the sort that happened in America back when. Biblical slavery wasn't the stealing of a person and forcing them into a life of forced labor. It was more when a person couldn't pay their debts they would agree to work them off by becoming that person's employee. They would have the same rights of other employees, they just had to stay until the debt was paid off. So, when we see the bible saying that we are rescued from slavery to sin and are now free to become slaves to righteousness, we add that to the picture of our adoption as sons of God. In affect, the picture that's being built for us is that situationally we've just been moved from indentured 'slave' to living in the masters house as 'son', with all the benefits that come with that.
So when Paul then calls us not to fall back into enslavement to sin, he saying how foolish it would be to be living 'the high life' but to get up each morning and trudge back off to work under the harsh eye of the foreman. We are needlessly experiencing the effects of our 'old life', rather than embracing the new.
However, I do not think that the text, or Paul, infers that a Christian, an adopted son of God, even acting in such a foolish and blind manner, gets 'un-adopted'. Any adopted child who lands in a really good, loving family will come to tell you that it didn't matter how they 'stuffed up', that family called them their own and welcomed them with open arms, even after they had done foolish things. This is how we must understand our adoption. We will all do foolish things. We will all slide backwards towards sin at times. But the God who sent his Son to die for us so we might become sons of God when it was obvious we could not get into the family by ourselves, does not then punish us for the same weakness. He encourages us to be better, he helps us to BE better by his Spirit. But he does not turn us away.


I was also pointing to the parable of the unforgiving debtor in my previous post. Here again the debtor is forgiven purely by grace, but thereafter expectations are placed upon the relationship. The lord expects the debtor to go and show others the same mercy he was shown. When these expectations are violated, the relationship is severed and the grace is rescinded.
But...are we to understand that the original man begging for his debts to be forgiven was truly a Christian? We know from other scriptures that there will be plenty of people who have 'called on the Lord' falsely. And that we know that not only on the Last Day, but by their fruits. And clearly, this man, having believed that everything was 'hunky dory' with his own debts, then turned around and showed the most rotten of fruits.
I think rather than showing that Christians must work to keep their salvation and are punished for not bearing good fruit, which I think is an idea contradicted by other passages (see above), it shows the folly of people sitting self-righteously in church, or wherever, believing them and God to be 'good', but then living a life completely not in step with a person who truly received grace.

So too, in the parable of the talents, you have very clear expectations. The one who received the one talent received something from his lord, so this suggests that a relationship was established. But the servant in this relationship was then clearly expected to go and work with what was given to him by his lord's grace, so as to create more wealth out of what he had. When the servant did not do this, the grace was rescinded and the relationship severed.

There are others I could cite which follow the same pattern, but the one I wanted to focus on was the first one, since it is implied in the passage brought up in the OP.
Again...I'm not sure I would interpret that parable strictly in that light. So...in the parable we see two servants go out and work with what their master gave them, right? They are most pleased to use what their Master has given them. The third, however, is not. He doesn't like his master, in fact he claims he's scared of him. That could be true, or he could just be a lazy bum who's making excuses. Either way, he does nothing and then tries to blame it on the master, who rightly punishes him.
Now, I would suggest that rather than being a parable about the woes of not working for your salvation, it's a parable that highlights the heart and spirit of those who are saved versus those who are not. The two who are happy to take what their master; Christ, has given them, and work with them, is those who have new hearts. As James tells us in his book, faith is not a true faith unless it is accompanied by works. It's DOING stuff for Christ that evidences our new hearts. And it doesn't really matter if we stuff up, or if its big or small or we struggle with it, what matters is it will be there, and it will be growing. The third servant? Well, that man was clearly dead. He wanted nothing to do with his master or the talent his master gave him. According to James, this man is not saved.
That's how I'd take this parable.