Ok, maybe I can get some work in today. I'm behind by two whole pages now, LoL.
That's the problem when you start a thread...you have to find time to answer everybody! And that can almost be a full time job!
About this, I didn't actually say we "have peace with God through the Holy Spirit." I was saying the Holy Spirit coming upon us is proof that we have peace with God through faith in Christ Jesus, and that justification through faith in His blood is what opens the door to it. This is what is referred to in Ephesians Chapter 2, where Paul said concerning the outpouring among the Gentiles:
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Ephesians 2:13-18)
In other words, Jesus IS our peace because through faith in Him we have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
If I understand you correctly (which I apparently didn't before, sorry!), you are suggesting that the 'outpouring' of the Spirit is what 'opens' the door for our salvation, but doesn't guarantee it? (Your post #69)
The objection I have to that is that I would say that the bible seems to teach that when the Holy Spirit is poured out upon us, we do, indeed, have a guarantee. The verses you quote above tell us that the Spirit brings us near, gives us access to God the Father. 2 Cor 1:21-22 tells us that the Holy Spirit has been put in our hearts as a guarantee and Ephesians 1:13-14 says we are sealed with the Spirit who is the guarantee of a promised inheritance. This suggests rather strongly, I believe, not of just a welcoming door cracked open, but of a sureness, of a changed heart that has a member of the Trinity dwelling within it that is guiding us towards a promised future. I am unsure how something worded so strongly could waver between dead, 'undwelt' in heart, and alive, dwelt in heart, based solely upon our performance. Should, as you say, a person live in long, consistent, unrepentant sin, I cannot see the bible suggesting that the Holy Spirit dwells within that person at all.
Ok, you reference Paul here. That's good. Let me show you something from what he wrote to Timothy:
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus... endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.... 10 I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us.
Now notice how salvation is contingent upon something here. Paul tells Timothy, "IF we suffer [with Him], we shall also reign with Him, but IF we deny Him, He will deny us." He was telling this to Timothy, which means Paul was readily acknowledging that both he and Timothy could potentially deny Christ. Hence his encouragement to Timothy to keep enduring hardships as a good soldier of Christ. Now we have documents saying that by the time of Trajan (110 A.D.) those whom the Romans coerced into denying Christ were forced to curse Him, and worship the pagan images instead to save their lives.
Well, I suppose to use a previous analogy, I would firstly say that, just because a parent who holds their child's hand tightly, points towards the road and tells that child what would happen should that child run towards it and onto it, does not necessarily mean that the parent will or intent to, let go of the child's hand.
Secondly, I would say that if we look at how Christ presents his relationship with us and how we stand in him and in the gospel:
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. -Galatians 2:20
“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. -John 15:18–20
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, -2 Timothy 3:12
In 2 Tim 2:10-13 (what you quoted above), we see Paul encouraging Timothy to accept the coming suffering.
You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also. Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. -2 Timothy 2:1–3
When we see that he goes on to tell Timothy that he endures all suffering for the sake of the gospel so that others may come to Christ, we then understand that Paul thinks of it in a very matter of fact way; Christ suffered for us, now we suffer for him, and for our fellow brothers...this is promised to us by Christ. We endure these things knowing that if Christ died for us, he will also cause us to live with him. We see this passage not as a 'you betta measure up' list, but another passage that lines up the contrasts of what happens to those who are in Christ, and those who are not, and God's faithfulness in dealing with both. To the faithful and those being condemned. Consider:
The saying is trustworthy, for:
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful—
for he cannot deny himself.
"If we have died with him"..... If we have been baptized into his death...ie, become born again (Rom 6:3-6), He will be faithful to make us live with him. This is not a condition, but a promise. Do you have the Spirit? That Spirit is the promise of his faithfulness.
"If we endure"....As we face the inevitable hardships and sufferings that WILL come, we CAN know that he has promised we shall reign with him. How can we know this, that we will endure through all? Because God himself promises to finish a work he began: Romans 8:29-30, John 28:30, Heb 12:2.
The passage here splits off and begins to show the unfaithful, and how God is still faithful, still just, in his dealings with them.
"If we deny him"...we know that this is clearly not a one time denial thing, otherwise Peter himself would have been damned. This, as you suggest, speaks of long time denial...of that moment when people cry out "Lord, Lord!" and he answers them "I did not know you". He promises us that he will faithfully judge the hearts of all men, despite what our mouths say, he knows our hearts.
"If we are faithless"...again, the promise to recognize the hearts of those who refuse to acknowledge God or his Christ. His faithfulness here is that we may know that his promises to us are as sure and just as his promises to the faithless.
All of which is to say, I suppose, is that I think the idea you posit, that salvation, once given, must be worked to be kept, is far too big an idea to balance on an 'if'. Especially when there is so much biblical weight against it.