1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Interpreting Romans 6:23 In Context

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hidden In Him, Nov 21, 2019.

  1. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I appreciate that. As I was telling someone recently on the subject of Bible Study, my habit is to stay away from all commentaries until I have come to firm conclusions myself about what entire books are about, i.e. with the help of the Holy Spirit of course, except on those rare occasions where the Spirit specifically directs me to a commentary on a particular verse while I am still in the formative stages.

    But down the road I will certainly give it a look if I am running through this thread again : )
     
  2. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    1,197
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Yes, I understand. The words of man have to be brought to the plumbline of God's Word and judged accordingly. The writer of this book would agree with that, for he advocates it.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Hidden In Him likes this.
  3. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,439
    Likes Received:
    6,132
  4. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Nah. I wasn't implying I thought they had it all together. Just that the statements in the passage should not be read as theoretical statements but rather read literally and historically is all.
    No, no. Not that the Bible is purely a history book either. There are plenty of statements that are made which are theoretical in nature rather than historical. I just don't think verses like Romans 6:17, 18 & 22 are theoretical. They're literal.
    What I mean is, statements like those made in Romans 6:15-16, 18 & 20 are universal, and indeed apply to the entire church throughout all time. But I believe you were applying v.17 and/or v.19 to the entire church as well, which I think is taking those verses out of context.
    Nope. I think there are many who want what God has to offer them as long as it will cost them nothing, and they can continue to live however they want to and still be blessed by God. This is implied in the Parable of the Sower, where the seed fell in all the soil, but did not take deep root in some soil and did not overcome the thorns in others. So, too, with many believers today. They want God but they want the world also. So they obey in some things and for a tie, but eventually their obedience comes to an end because they hit a wall they cannot surmount. I see Christians who persistently refuse to obey God all the time, actually.
    Because I love Him. I'm not particularly fearful of Hell at this point because I've walked with Him so long and grown in my relationship with Him to the point where... tell you the truth, I never have been particularly afraid of it. I've always been too close to Him, like from the start. But there are still a great number of things I could be doing to serve Him better, hence my focus on obedience these days.
    Well yes! True Christians, and in this sense I would agree with you. But I believe there are also those who begin with Christ, and I mean truly begin with Christ, but only very superficially. This is not only suggested by the Sower Parable, but by what I've seen in real life. They are excited for awhile, going to church, trying to depart from sin etc., but then they eventually lose interest in the things of God and in pursuing them and go back into the world, and end up dying in their sins.

    And sometimes, Naomi, I'm tempted to place the blame partly on messages that tell them nothing they can do will separate them from God and their relationship with Him...
    I'm hearing scriptures in my head that I'm guessing we are about to have to deal with now, LoL.
    Now this we fully agree on : ) Where we differ, however, is that you believe such a person could never have believed in Christ (i.e. received He who is the Word made flesh within them) to begin with. I believe that like the soil in the parable, there are many who indeed receive Him within themselves, but eventually they let the things of this world again choke Him out, to where He never bears fruit in their lives.
     
  5. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    ?
    I think we're both getting lost, LoL. I am saying faith in Christ opens the door to justification, and justification opens the door to the Outpouring.
    This is the crux of our disagreement right here. As I was telling you (though I may not have made it clear very well), the translation of "guarantee" can be misleading, especially when it is taken to mean that our salvation is "guaranteed" the minute we receive the Holy Spirit. I'm going to get a little loose here, but so as to try and make myself a little more clear this time, the word is translated by some translators as the "earnest" of our inheritance. In other words, the Spirit is our "earnest" of salvation, meaning that God is declaring by the outpouring that His intentions are in earnest. But they are not a guarantee. The translators use that translation in the financial sense, like when you put down a deposit on a piece of property. This shows the owner that you are in earnest about buying it, and not just giving him the run around. But just because you put down a deposit does not mean you have guaranteed him that you are going to buy it. Some people renege on the agreement, which is precisely why the deposits are asked for in business transactions. It's so if the person backs out, the owner at least gets to keep some sort of compensation for refusing to sell to anyone else who is interested.

    This is the sense in which the translation "guarantee" is used by those who use it. Some avoid that confusion by going with "earnest" or "down deposit" instead. It is in this sense that Paul said,

    "12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

    See how it is used here? Paul is using the business-transaction analogy to say, "the Holy Spirit has been sent as a type of down deposit on what He eventually intends to fully redeem."
    Well, we may be hopelessly at odds then. For me, the verses and passages you say offer so much overwhelming Biblical weight as to supersede the "ifs" in these passages give them a little TOO much weight in my eyes, LoL. But to each his own.

    But the passages you cite can be interpreted differently, and not cancel out the conditional words "if" so often used when discussing salvation-related issues. I'm a big stickler on including all related scriptures in any topic-specific discussion. And as Episkopos was saying a few days back, one little word can make a really big difference sometimes.
     
  6. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    In regard to normal sins in Christian's lives, I don't pass judgment on Christians, and I wouldn't have passed judgment on Schrödinger's cat either, LoL. :)

    But now, in regard to those who openly renounce Christ before all, unless they repent of doing so before their death...
    I'd say that's a dead cat.


    [​IMG]
    I'm getting worn out, too, LoL. We may have had it.

    At least I have some nice cool temperatures to walk around in, so I guess that means I win! :D
     
  7. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    1,356
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    So...my amazing powers of deduction leads me to conclude that our back and forths are getting longer and longer :p. So, in an attempt to whittle the length of my replies down a bit, I thought I'd pick what I see as perhaps the most pertinent points of your post to the conversation, and answer them. I hope in doing so I haven't dismissed what you see to be any important point.

    So...with the above verse, you say the 'better' interpretation of the Hebrews passage is 'run the race of endurance, looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith'. Now, I don't argue with the usage of that word, as it is used in many translations, I think you are mistaken in what the word means. It speaks of him being the 'perfecter or OUR faith'. He has an active hand and work in it. And when we look at the actual Greek word used, we can see this a little more clearly, I think. "teleiótés: a perfecter, completer, finisher; properly, a consummator, bringing a process to its finish."
    Basically, we're being told that He who created this new being within us, who gave us this salvation, will bring it to it's ultimate consummation; glorification, the perfection we are hoping in.

    Ah...this, I think is getting to the crux of things. I...see what you are saying, however, I'm not sure that, taken to it's logical conclusion, it can hold up under the weight of scrutiny. IF we CAN screw up....that is....if continued salvation is based upon us not 'completely screwing it up'....does not that still mean it is based upon our actions, at least to some extent? It must, must it not? Because to 'not' screw it up totally, that would mean that I perform admirably time after time. Or at least time enough after time. And that ultimately means that salvation can or does, rest upon me and my actions, rather than upon Christ and his actions...his work and his gift.
    So...I'm not quite sure how that follows...if you follow.
     
  8. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    1,356
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Eh...we're always wrong at some point, right? I don't suppose anyone particularly likes saying; 'I was wrong', but it's not like our noses will fall off it happens. In fact, we might actually learn something. To be perfectly frank, I don't really mind being hit with something I can't noodle through. I confess, I do my best to argue from my position, as we all do...but I think those occasions where we truly come up against something where we're forced to say "I don't know" or "I can't support my position on that", means we're forced to dig deeper or reconsider and study more. And that inevitably leads to a better understanding; either of our original position, or perhaps even to a new one. Either way, I think it's how we grow.
     
  9. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    1,356
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    SNORT! Yes, I most certainly did mean to say NOT permanent...nice catch. It would be wise, I suppose, to proof read my responses, but often I shoot 'em off quick as I'm squeezing them in between stuff. But, so glad people get my drift anyway! Thanks again! I might go and edit it :)
     
  10. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    This is certainly another plausible way of interpreting the phrase, yes. I just don't agree that that's what's being communicated : )
    I was about to say, you were starting to make it sound a bit too laborious, LoL. Kinda like, "Lord, I don't want to deny You to Your face, but the Devil is making it SOOOO, so very hard..."
    [​IMG]
    LoL. I was about to write another reasoned response, but we're just going to go around in circles again <chuckle>. I'll say whether or not I take the mark of the beast depends on me and my freewill, and you will say that no true Christian would ever do so. I will say "But there are statements that say such things are contingent upon the choice of the believer," and you will say that words like "if" should never outweigh the other scriptural evidence to the contrary... so it will just go around and around and around, LoL. :)

    Let me just say this. Certainly it is contrary to the gospel to trust in our own ability to save ourselves, but I also think it is contrary to the gospel to teach that if one places any responsibility on the believer whatsoever, they have somehow blasphemed the plan of God : )

    To me, the message that no responsibility rests on the head of believers whatsoever tends to invite and reinforce lukewarmness on the part of many today, at a time when we have a far greater problem with spiritual lukewarmness than overzealousness. To me, teaching that no responsibility at all rests with the believer is what is causing many to sort of end up like this...

    [​IMG]

    ... utterly oblivious to the high calling of God, LoL.

    But I'm sure you'd say the message is not the problem but rather the way it's taught and interpreted. We just disagree is all.
    Anyway, we're pretty much just spinning our wheels at this point, but it was fun! :)

    Bless you, sister, and thanks for a polite and considerate conversation. I enjoyed it : )
     
  11. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    1,356
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Again, I'm just going with a single point, not because the other was unimportant, but because if we don't start focusing, we'll be lost in an ever-increasing number of posts.


    I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. -John 10:28–29

    All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. -John 6:37–39


    When considering these verses we must, I think, look at the whole picture, yes? John 10:28-29 says 'no one' is able to snatch us out of Christ's hand. The word used here is 'oudeis', which: "is a powerful negating conjunction. It rules out by definition, i.e. "shuts the door" objectively and leaves no exceptions. It is deductive in force so it excludes every (any) example that is included withing the premise (supposition). It categorically excludes, declaring as a fact that no valid example exists." Basically, when this word is used, Jesus is saying that there is not a thing in existence...yes, death being one of them, that can separate us from Him. But, understanding that death is only one, we must also understand that everything else is in view as well...even ourselves. We see this more specifically in the next passage:
    John 6:37-39 let's us see that that we are more or less passive in these transactions, and the Father and Christ are the ones acting here. The Father 'gives' to Christ, and Christ will 'never cast out'. He will also 'never lose' those of us the Father 'has given him', but 'raise us up on the last day.'

    When we put these verses together with other verses, such as the Hebrews 12:2, for example (Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith), we begin to see a picture of intent and strength and purpose beyond just our own. Thus we see the fullness of this verse:

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. -Romans 8:28–30

    We see how sure our glorification is, it is even spoken of if it already has happened! That is the promise, the guarantee of the seal of the Spirit; once we have been ransomed, nothing will separate us from the love of Christ...not even ourselves, which surely cannot be considered to be 'greater' than both Christ or the Father....
     
  12. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    1,356
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    I agree God draws us to him with love, but unsurprisingly (as you know me!) I don't agree with much else. God always knew he would need to send a Savior. Even in the Garden, after the fall, he promised Adam and Eve that 'seed' who would come and crush the head of the serpent. And we know, thanks to Paul, that even OT saints were not, as surprising as it may seem, saved by keeping the law. They too were saved by faith and grace. So, why the law? Again, Paul tells us. The law stood as a diagnostic. How can a person tell if they're sick unless they know what healthy and normal looks like? How can they tell what's sinful against a holy God unless they first know what holy laws look like? What sin is? God always knew that people were (and are) incapable of following all the laws perfectly. Paul, the best of the best, who probably came pretty darn close to following the 10 and the ceremonial laws still says that all that? Like filthy rags in what really mattered. And that was the state of the heart, in the standing of God. We always needed a Savior, and we needed the laws to make us aware of our desperate need.
    So Post-Christ? God has not changed. His ultimate plan has come to brilliant fruition. As Christ himself said, 'the blind see, the lame walk, the sick are made well'. We are now in the time when hearts are being made new. We come to God in a blaze of love for our Savior, drawn not by obligation or fear. And if it's either of those two that attempts to keep us there, then we've missed the message of Christ and the freedom he's bought us. And the joy of going forth IN that freedom to spread that grace, mercy and love around. That is why we 'work', not to keep, or earn...but because of love. So, yes, I agree God is a God of love.
     
  13. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    1,356
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Our Lord who healed the ear of the man arresting him? Or who begged his Father to forgive the men who'd just flogged and crucified him? Our Lord is not gullible, he is merciful. And....he is wise. You give a guilty man enough rope to hang himself or show his true colors.....

    Everyone is under the rule of God. Even those perishing.
     
  14. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,439
    Likes Received:
    6,132
    "We love Him, because He first loved us" (1 John 4.19)
     
    Naomi25 likes this.
  15. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,957
    Likes Received:
    4,098
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    So you think that God does coerce or force people to love Him, and that is a characteristic of love? So once we come to Him voluntarily, He keeps us there by force, even against our wills?
     
    amadeus and Hidden In Him like this.
  16. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,957
    Likes Received:
    4,098
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    My turn to disagree. :) are not those who are perishing under the rule of the god of this world? Are they not ruled by passion...emotion...lust...addictions...deceptions? The fact they have chosen another master, is that not why they are lost?
    I would go further...I would suggest that many who reject Christ declare the same as these...
    KJV John 19
    15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

    Did not Jesus say that no one could serve two masters? And John said that of we live the world the live of the Father is not in us, in fact, friendship with the world is enmity with God. How many people do you know who once were faithful to Christ and growing in grace, nevertheless fell away and became enchanted once again with the things of this world? Can those who are now at enmity with God...enemies therefore of God...still have a future and a hope despite their choosing another master?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
    Hidden In Him likes this.
  17. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,439
    Likes Received:
    6,132
    @charity Indeed so, and not the other way round...
     
    charity likes this.
  18. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    1,197
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Hello there,

    There is not one of us who would want to be found to be denying the fulness of God in Christ Jesus, I'm sure. We would be horrified if this were the case. Yet, it is possible that we could be inadvertently doing so, by standing and defending what we perceive to be truth, and in doing so, undermining that wondrous fulness of God in Christ Jesus.

    May God keep us all from being guilty of denying Him in any way. I pray this for all of us who take part in this forum. May God keep the door of our lips, and keep us from being guilty of misappropriating His WORD

    In Christ Jesus
    Amen
     
    marks and farouk like this.
  19. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Ah... now this is an interesting passage to discuss! I know you will likely not agree with me here, but IMO "glorified" is not actually used of our resurrected state here. Sometimes the word is simply used in the sense of "bringing honor" to someone, as in John 14:13, John 15:8 and several other passages. The word glorified in Romans 8:30 is in the indicative aorist active, which is used of an event having occurred at a specific point in time but with no reference to exactly when. But aorists are nearly always translated in past tense. I therefore believe it was used of the glorification or "honoring" of the NT saints through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and manifestations of the spiritual gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:26 uses δοξάζεται in reference to the gifts, though most don't recognize it right off. But the context is about the Lord honoring not just a few but all members of the body of Christ with spiritual gifts, in the broader context of discussing their proper use (Chapters 12-14).
    Well yes, everyone is under His rule. But not everyone is His servant.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  20. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes. This is I think a hard point to counter for all but those who do not believe in the freewill of the believer.

    I was thinking about this just last night, in fact, and your post just brought it back to my memory. Though I would never put this directly to someone for fear of offending them by being a little too aggressive and confrontational, the truth is that I could very well deny Him and turn my back on Him if I wanted to. It would be more foolish than committing suicide - far more foolish - but I still have my freewill intact, and I could reject Him and walk away from Him at any moment if I so chose to.

    Now, some who read that would likely be tempted to tell me I must not be a real Christian if I could say such a thing, for no true Christian would. But I think they would only be saying it to defend a position. They would be forced to regard me as a non-Christian, for no other reason than that they disagreed with me on this issue.

    It actually brought to mind Paul's words about wishing he could be dammed if it would bring Israel to salvation, but it's a ridiculous thing to think of forsaking Christ just to prove to others a true Christian can reject God if he wishes. Some would likely then just point to my rejection of Him as proof that I never was actually saved.
     
Loading...