The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Ignatius is not equvalent to Scripture so it doesn't matter.

And NOBODY said that his letters were Scripture.
THAT is a red herring.

They DO, however, offer us a window into 1st century Christianity and show us what the Church looked like. It’s also important to note that Ignatius was not only a student of the Apostle John – but that John was still presumably ALIVE what these letters were written.

The Church is not “only” Scriptural – it’s HISTORICAL.
It cracks me up whenever you guys knock the writings of the Early Church because they’re NOT Scripture – especially since NONE of what your Protestant Fathers wrote was Scripture – yet yet you follow THEM . . .

 

[reformed1689]

hey DO, however, offer us a window into 1st century Christianity and show us what the Church looked like. It’s also important to note that Ignatius was not only a student of the Apostle John – but that John was still presumably ALIVE what these letters were written.

This literally proves nothing. We already know from Paul's letters that some churches were going away from right doctrine in his lifetime.

It cracks me up whenever you guys knock the writings of the Early Church because they’re NOT Scripture – especially since NONE of what your Protestant Fathers wrote was Scripture – yet yet you follow THEM . . .

Strawman. I don't knock them because they are not Scripture, I do read ECF as it can be beneficial. What I knock is when people elevate it to the level of Scripture by saying it doesn't matter what you say Scripture says because one of the ECF said x.....

Furthermore, I do not follow the Reformers. Do I read their work? YES, but I test everything against SCRIPTURE the only and final authority.

 

[Grams]

You didn't answer my question.
Do you only read the Bible now because you are told to??

What a silly question...... Of course not.......
But these day's I have to wait till it is ???? not to loud...........
See my husband and I moved in with our son and his wife,,,,,, and there 8 children..
So can you imagine how much time I have of quiet ?

By the way,,,, mass was in Latin, and the preaching most of the time
was in Polish .......... how do you learn from language you do not
understand ??????????????????????????????

 

[Taken]

Scripture teaches us both EXPLICITLY and IMPLICITLY.

And? So?

The Basis for Either, MUST be Based on Gods TRUTH.

"YOU" Stating ONLY those in Heaven are "FULL of Grace"...is NOT based ON Gods TRUTH.

"YOU" Stating Mary being "FULL of Grace"...IS based ON Gods TRUTH.

"YOU" Stating Mary was "TITLED" "FULL of Grace", is a GREEK opinion, you adopted.

"YOU" Stating Mary was "herself" Conceived in her mother's Womb and naturally Born "WITHOUT" Sin...IS NOT based on Gods Truth.

"YOU" have EXPRESSLY Stated your Belief, that Mary was SINLESS, "IS" based "ON" an "IMPLICATION"...and that "IMPLICATION" is based "ON" the Greeks OPINION of Mary being the "ONLY" one on Earth, Titled as being "Full of Grace".

"I" have Expressly Stated "I" do NOT agree with your Conclusions.

"I" have Expressly verified with Scripture, that "YOUR" claims are NOT, Expressly taught in Scripture, Nor are "YOUR" claims IMPLIED in Scripture.

"YOU" have repeatedly been Disingenusous and a False Accuser Against me and others who have Resonded to your Physophical Catholic mumbo jumbo THAT consistently IS NOT according to Gods Truth.

You so desperately want to be "the" recognized Catholic teacher, Always right and Always wanting others to be IN AGREEMENT with you. THAT WHEN people REJECT what you peddle, your recourse is to Berate, in every tricky accusatory manner you have been taught by your own Catholic mentors.

You are completely unaware how "YOU" are the forum leader in Confirming Why many Reject Catholicism and in general, Catholic Doctrine and Catholics whose same attitude is reflective of your behavior.

So quit your whinning, Everyone has addressed your opinioned, implied Doctrine, that has no cause in Gods Truth to believe it, Because "YOU" do.
Everyone has addressed you changing their words into things they never said.
Everyone has noticed how you attack and deflect when you can not point to Gods Scriptural Truth to verify your outrageous claims.

Put on a man hat, and accept no one is Jumping on your bandwagon.

Glory to God
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

This literally proves nothing. We already know from Paul's letters that some churches were going away from right doctrine in his lifetime.

Strawman. I don't knock them because they are not Scripture, I do read ECF as it can be beneficial. What I knock is when people elevate it to the level of Scripture by saying it doesn't matter what you say Scripture says because one of the ECF said x.....

Furthermore, I do not follow the Reformers. Do I read their work? YES, but I test everything against SCRIPTURE the only and final authority.

WRONG.

As I stated earlier – Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John and wrote these letters while John was still presumably alive. Besides – Jesus guaranteed that even the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18).

The Letters of Ignatius show that by the end of the 1st century . . .
The Church was called “The Catholic Church”
The teaching on the Eucharist and the Real Presence was a well-known a far-reaching doctrine
There was a hierarchy of Bishops, Priests and Deacons
The laity was admonished to OBEY their clergy

They DON’T show is that a Church standing on the Protestant pillars of Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide. On the contrary – his letters, along with the Epistle of Clement (circa 80 AD) show the Supreme Earthly Authority of the CHURCH – just like the Scriptures do (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23) . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

What a silly question...... Of course not.......
But these day's I have to wait till it is ???? not to loud...........
See my husband and I moved in with our son and his wife,,,,,, and there 8 children..
So can you imagine how much time I have of quiet ?

By the way,,,, mass was in Latin, and the preaching most of the time
was in Polish .......... how do you learn from language you do not
understand ??????????????????????????????

Soooooo, you left the Church because you couldn't understand Polish - yet you NEVER thought to give to an English speaking parish??

Unbelievable . . .

 

[Grams]

Soooooo, you left the Church because you couldn't understand Polish??

Unbelievable . . .

No !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I could learn more then what was in my prayer book !!!!!!! Or Rosary

 

[BreadOfLife]

And? So?

The Basis for Either, MUST be Based on Gods TRUTH.

"YOU" Stating ONLY those in Heaven are "FULL of Grace"...is NOT based ON Gods TRUTH.

"YOU" Stating Mary being "FULL of Grace"...IS based ON Gods TRUTH.

"YOU" Stating Mary was "TITLED" "FULL of Grace", is a GREEK opinion, you adopted.

"YOU" Stating Mary was "herself" Conceived in her mother's Womb and naturally Born "WITHOUT" Sin...IS NOT based on Gods Truth.

"YOU" have EXPRESSLY Stated your Belief, that Mary was SINLESS, "IS" based "ON" an "IMPLICATION"...and that "IMPLICATION" is based "ON" the Greeks OPINION of Mary being the "ONLY" one on Earth, Titled as being "Full of Grace".

"I" have Expressly Stated "I" do NOT agree with your Conclusions.

"I" have Expressly verified with Scripture, that "YOUR" claims are NOT, Expressly taught in Scripture, Nor are "YOUR" claims IMPLIED in Scripture.

"YOU" have repeatedly been Disingenusous and a False Accuser Against me and others who have Resonded to your Physophical Catholic mumbo jumbo THAT consistently IS NOT according to Gods Truth.

You so desperately want to be "the" recognized Catholic teacher, Always right and Always wanting others to be IN AGREEMENT with you. THAT WHEN people REJECT what you peddle, your recourse is to Berate, in every tricky accusatory manner you have been taught by your own Catholic mentors.

You are completely unaware how "YOU" are the forum leader in Confirming Why many Reject Catholicism and in general, Catholic Doctrine and Catholics whose same attitude is reflective of your behavior.

So quit your whinning, Everyone has addressed your opinioned, implied Doctrine, that has no cause in Gods Truth to believe it, Because "YOU" do.
Everyone has addressed you changing their words into things they never said.
Everyone has noticed how you attack and deflect when you can not point to Gods Scriptural Truth to verify your outrageous claims.

Put on a man hat, and accept no one is Jumping on your bandwagon.

Glory to God
Taken

And this is a PERFECT example of why you are always losing debates.
You simply don’t pay attention . . .

I never said that only people in Heaven are full of grace.
I said that only those in Heaven are Kecharitomene – which means, “completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace.”
Their endowment of grace IS COMPLETE.

Pay attention to the conversation, come up with a valid refutation of “Kecharitomne” – then get back to me . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I could learn more then what was in my prayer book !!!!!!! Or Rosary

So, as an adult, you couldn't go to an English speaking parish?
You were too poor to buy a Bible?

Is that it??

 

[reformed1689]

Besides – Jesus guaranteed that even the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18).

What exactly do you think that means?

The Church was called “The Catholic Church”

catholic not Catholic.

The teaching on the Eucharist and the Real Presence was a well-known a far-reaching doctrine

There is debate on this among ECF writings as we have shown already.

Sola Fide.

HERESY! So we are not saved by faith alone? You have just spoken directly against Scripture. Grace alone through Faith alone.

just like the Scriptures do (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23) . . .

Again, none of these Scripture show the church as supreme authority. That's just how the Catholic Church twists them so they remain in power.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What exactly do you think that means?

catholic not Catholic.

There is debate on this among ECF writings as we have shown already.

HERESY! So we are not saved by faith alone? You have just spoken directly against Scripture. Grace alone through Faith alone.
Again, none of these Scripture show the church as supreme authority. That's just how the Catholic Church twists them so they remain in power.

It means that HIS Church would survive the test of time – and the wickedness of the world.

Like EVERY other line of Scripture – you need to put it into perspective with all the rest of Scripture. You anti-Catholics are fond of cherry-picking the Scriptures – and that’s why you always fall FLAT on your face. Cherry-picking only leads to confusion and ultimately, failure to understand.

Christ taught that HIS Church was like a ”city on a hill that cannot be hidden” and likened it to the “light of the world”. HIS Church would ALWAYS be a visible body – not some secret gaggle ot “believers” whom Protestants refer to as the “remnant” that carried the “true” Gospel throughout the centuries.
It was ALWAYS His Catholic Church – visible and public that did all of the preaching and planting and living and dying for the faith.

As for the ECFS – there is ZERO debate ojnn the Eucharist. The belief in the Real Presence was UNANIMOUS.

As for Sola Fide – NOWHERE does the bible state that we are saved by “Faith Alone”. Luther added the word “Alone” to his German translation of Rom. 3:28. In fact – the ONLY place in the entire Bible where the words “faith alone” appear is in James 2:24, where it explicitly states that we are NOT saved by faith alone.

Finally – there is NO need to twist Scripture to show that the Church is the Final Authority on earth.
The text says it LOUD and clear . . .
Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."
John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

 

[reformed1689]

It means that HIS Church would survive the test of time – and the wickedness of the world.

And what does that have to do with the infallibility of the church? Nothing.

Christ taught that HIS Church was like a ”city on a hill that cannot be hidden” and likened it to the “light of the world”. HIS Church would ALWAYS be a visible body – not some secret gaggle ot “believers” whom Protestants refer to as the “remnant” that carried the “true” Gospel throughout the centuries.

Exactly, it is believers, not an organization.

states that we are NOT saved by faith alone.

Wow, James DOES NOT say we are saved by anything other than faith alone. More Heresy.

None of the verses you give have anything to do with the church having supreme authority. That's nonsense.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And what does that have to do with the infallibility of the church? Nothing.

Exactly, it is believers, not an organization.

Wow, James DOES NOT say we are saved by anything other than faith alone. More Heresy.

None of the verses you give have anything to do with the church having supreme authority. That's nonsense.

No – that’s denial.

As I have pointed out – the Scriptures are crystal clear on the church being the Final earthly Authority.

Remember what I taught you about taking ALL of the Scriptures into their proper context and not just cherry-picking. Let’s review . . .
- The Bible explicitly calls the CHURCH and NOT the Scriptures the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- The Bible explicitly the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Bible explicitly states that Jesus compared His very SELF with His CHURCH.

As for what James says about “Faith alone” – here it is:
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

Finally – the Church IS a Body of believers.
Do YOU believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ as Scripture teaches (John 6:47-58, Matt. 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:19-20, 1 Cor. 11:24)?
NO.

Do YOU believe that Baptism is regenerative as Scripture teaches (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 3:21)?
NO.

Do YOU believe that Christ’s Church is the Final Authority on earth as Scripture teaches (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23)?
NO.

“Believer”??
YOU don’t seem to fit the bill . . .

 

[Ezra]

????
Do you ever proofread your posts??

to busy reading your bologna

 

[Ezra]

I'm puzzled as to why you deny that the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin.
1Jn 1:7
but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. (RSV)
Even the KJV says that.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin (KJV)

ummm it is you who holds to water baptism makes us clean not me

 

[reformed1689]

As for what James says about “Faith alone” – here it is:
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

For someone who likes to harp on people supposedly taking verses out of context you sure do it a lot.

Do YOU believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ as Scripture teaches (John 6:47-58, Matt. 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:19-20, 1 Cor. 11:24)?

I believe that it is a symbol of the body and blood as all of those references affirm. It is not literal flesh and blood.

Do YOU believe that Christ’s Church is the Final Authority on earth as Scripture teaches (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23)?

Those verses do not teach that a man-made organization called the Catholic Church has the final authority.

YOU don’t seem to fit the bill . . .

And now you are saying I am not a Christian. This will be reported.

 

[BreadOfLife]

to busy reading your bologna

Well, maybe you should start proofreading your posts . . .

 

[Ezra]

No – that’s denial.

As I have pointed out – the Scriptures are crystal clear on the church being the Final earthly Authority.

Remember what I taught you about taking ALL of the Scriptures into their proper context and not just cherry-picking. Let’s review . . .
- The Bible explicitly calls the CHURCH and NOT the Scriptures the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- The Bible explicitly the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Bible explicitly states that Jesus compared His very SELF with His CHURCH.

As for what James says about “Faith alone” – here it is:
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

Finally – the Church IS a Body of believers.
Do YOU believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ as Scripture teaches (John 6:47-58, Matt. 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:19-20, 1 Cor. 11:24)?
NO.

Do YOU believe that Baptism is regenerative as Scripture teaches (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 3:21)?
NO.

Do YOU believe that Christ’s Church is the Final Authority on earth as Scripture teaches (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23)?
NO.

“Believer”??
YOU don’t seem to fit the bill . . .

more man made garbage ..i have no more time for the fleshy post. thus saith the pope

 

[BreadOfLife]

For someone who likes to harp on people supposedly taking verses out of context you sure do it a lot.


I believe that it is a symbol of the body and blood as all of those references affirm. It is not literal flesh and blood.

Those verses do not teach that a man-made organization called the Catholic Church has the final authority.

And now you are saying I am not a Christian. This will be reported.

Then, why don’t YOU tell us what James is saying in James 2:24 . . .
As for the Church’s God-Given Authority – it isn’t a “man-made” organization – but the Body of Christ, built by Christ himself.

Finally – I NEVER said you were NOT a Christian. Why don’t you try being honest, for a change.
I simply stated that since you reject some of the main tenets of the Christian faith – you don’t seem to fit the bill. Maybe you secretly DO believe these things.

 

[reformed1689]

I simply stated that since you reject some of the main tenets of the Christian faith

Name one tenant of the Christian Faith I actually reject. Just one please.