PURGATORY.....a befitting place to discuss doctrines especially those pertaining to The Mother of Christ. Through her the King of kings came which is the rise and fall of MANY!Maybe so. I was speaking of Order. This thread is aboutpurgatory, Mary's natural born sinlessness.
Glory to God,
Taken
The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective
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BreadOfLife
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Sorry – but I provided Scholarly linguistic evidence to the contrary.So now I will speak Greek because we have a little problem with what you are saying. First let me emphasis I DO NOT QUESTION ANYTHING GOD DID FOR MOTHER MIRYAM (MARY). I get her role and love her regardless of all the debates and interps. Some things are elementary and she is FULL OF GRACE= Highly favored. With that said, there is some bias with your interp of Kecharitmene .
“Full of Grace” translates kecharitōmĕnē the perfect passive participle of charitŏō
to make graceful, endow with grace
Usage: I favor, bestow freely on.
It does not indicate a past event, it simply is the feminine form of what Christ Himself is called. And not because she had this happen to her at her conception in her mother's womb either. But that it is a pronouncement of what is to be, from then on moving forward forever.
favor highly
From charis; to grace, i.e. Indue with special honor -- make accepted, be highly favoured.
Kecharitmene
(Ke)-is the greeting, (charit) Present tense -Graced One ( MEANING AT THAT MOMENT OF THE ANGELS MESSAGE SHE IS BEING GRACED BY HIS (God's) PRESENTS- Hence , the Lord is with you), (Mene) -feminine making the greeting to a woman
John 1:14
says that Jesus was plErEs charitos, which literally means "full of grace." (Those capital Es are present etas, so pronounce them like the e in "they"; the word is thus pronounced PLAY-RACE).
Luke 1:28 uses kecharitomene, which literally means "one who has been graced" or "woman who has been graced" (since the gender is female). It doesn’t literally mean "full of grace," But people use poetic license , C'est la vie!
This is simply stating a decree WHICH FIRST TAKES PLACE IN HEAVEN. It does not mean, as you imply (at the moment of her conception in her mothers womb that she is Immaculate then. But rather, as being a predestined Elect Jew, it was decreed in heaven that she would be the God Bearer. She is the Graced one because God has graced her with His presents. We cannot forget, Miryam was a righteous Jewish girl who obeyed Torah. It is not like she was some sick twisted person. She was a child of Abraham and was a practicing, observant Jewish girl, from a Godly Jewish family. She had sin but minor not a major sinner,the basics you know ancestral or original sin! So I do not get the fixation on her being Saved too! CLEARLY THAT IS WHY CHRIST CAME. I mean she did say that: "My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior". This is not complicated. If she was Immaculate at her conception in her mother's womb she would not respond like that .God Graced her with His presents and perfected her for Himself. Her words are clear , they indicate an ACT OF SALVATION FOR HER, PERIOD!
And don't give me , " Do you have a problem with her not knowing she was Perfect , she was humble and did not know." So she called herself a sinner because she was humble? I DON'T THINK SO! It is more like this:
1 John 1:
Walking in the Light
…7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…
Here Stephen is called exactly what Jesus is called. Many make a big deal out of it. This to compare him to Mother Miryam (Mary) and Jesus for that matter. WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL? We are suppose to be like Jesus, we are to walk like Jesus walked and we are RIGHTEOUS AS Jesus is RIGHTEOUS , just as He planned.
Acts 6:8 refers to Stephen as plErEs charitos, so again it’s literally "full of grace" and just the same as the description used of Jesus in John 1:14.
I have studied ALL the denominations doctrines. they all have something worth looking at. But there are somethings that should be thrown out! Mother Miryam was Saved and sanctified at her YES to what the angel said which was DECREED in heaven FIRST about her and then made so. And was fulfilled at her YES, that it be done according to the WORD spoken to her. THE WORD FIRST HAD TO COME HER and He did, at that moment of the salutation of the Messenger of God! THE WORD OF THE LORD, THANKS BE TO GOD!
I quoted H. W. Smyth, who was one of the most respected and knowledgeable ancient Greek scholars in history. He not only taught ancient Greek at Harvard University, but also in Athens Greece for 15 years and authored some EIGHT textbooks on the subject.
Smyth states that Mary’s title of “κεχαριτωμένη“ (Kecharitomene) DOES indicate a PAST event – a COMPLETED action with a PERMANENT result.
When YOU have his knowledge and pedigree in ancient Greek language – THEN you can correct him. Until then – you aren’t qualified . . .
As for Mary’s ”admission” to being a sinner – this is nonsense.
ALL she stated in the Magnificat was that her “soul rejoices in God my Savior”. God IS her Savior. Did you think she saved herself?? This is an acknowledgement of salvation – NOT an admission of sin.
As for Stephen – he is described as being “full of grace” at that moment. However, he is NOT described as “Kecharitomene”. This title is reserved for Mary ALONE in ALL of Scripture – OT or NT..
Sacred Tradition coupled with Sacred Scripture indicates that she was saved PRIOR to being born – and scholarly linguistic evidence supports Kecharitomene being a completed action with a permanent result.
BreadOfLife
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Just take it on the Scriptural case alone.
Address the Scriptural case I presented. Are these meree coincidences?
BreadOfLife
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WRONG.
Jesus is FULLY Human and FULLY God. Your perversions if Scripture are heresy.
Heb. 2:14-17
Since the children have flesh and blood, HE TOO SHARED IN THEIR HUMANITY so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. For this reason he had to be made like them, FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Case CLOSED.
The main point, whether all agree with me or with others, is to STOP CONDEMNING THE MOTHER OF CHRIST and those who esteem her. Love her as Christ loves her, "Now I leave you with a new commandment, love one another as I have loved you", "THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE" PERIOD!
She is a queen because He is a KING and it all follows suit with what was established from the OC and he fulfills NOT abolishes all the Laws.
She is a Perpetual Virgin because she has put on her immortality and is not taken or given into marriage because in heaven we are like the angels.
Psalm 132:7-9
…7Let us go to His dwelling place; let us worship at His footstool. 8Arise, O LORD, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. 9May Your priests be clothed with righteousness, and Your saints shout for joy.…
DWELLING PLACE: Within 1 Corinthians 3:1616Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
FOOTSTOOL: Isaiah 66:1 Heaven is My Throne
1This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me? Or where will be My place of repose? We can build Him nothing but He has built His Temple Himself that NO MAN can take credit for with the works of their hands and that is the HUMAN BODY!
HIS RESTING PLACE: Is Heaven where He ascended to and it is only through the Temple that we have a connection to Him . Hence, Jacob's ladder.
THE ARK OF HIS STRENGTH: Is the New ark of the new and better covenant. The one that no man has built with hands but that he Himself fashioned by HIS OWN STRENGTH ALONE! That is His chosen mother. The complete Covenant Ark not the obsolete.
Hebrews8:13
13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Those in Him are NOT obsolete and DO NOT FADE AWAY .They are eternal as He is Eternal. At the time Hebrews was first penned the OC was fading and it will be completely gone when God continues moving time forward in His judgements. Bringing about the passing away of time, making way for eternity. But for sure the wooded gold inlaid ark has been consummated to the earth in decay and the ARK of HIS STRENGTH= to whom HE has given strength to, is in HEAVEN in the Temple of God.
Psalm 132:7-9 , as many of the Psalms are, is a prophecy concerning the Lords resurrection and RISING to HIS REST taken WITH HIM THE ARK OF HIS STRENGTH!
And the GREATEST of these is LOVE!
She is a queen because He is a KING and it all follows suit with what was established from the OC and he fulfills NOT abolishes all the Laws.
She is a Perpetual Virgin because she has put on her immortality and is not taken or given into marriage because in heaven we are like the angels.
Psalm 132:7-9
…7Let us go to His dwelling place; let us worship at His footstool. 8Arise, O LORD, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. 9May Your priests be clothed with righteousness, and Your saints shout for joy.…
DWELLING PLACE: Within 1 Corinthians 3:1616Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
FOOTSTOOL: Isaiah 66:1 Heaven is My Throne
1This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me? Or where will be My place of repose? We can build Him nothing but He has built His Temple Himself that NO MAN can take credit for with the works of their hands and that is the HUMAN BODY!
HIS RESTING PLACE: Is Heaven where He ascended to and it is only through the Temple that we have a connection to Him . Hence, Jacob's ladder.
THE ARK OF HIS STRENGTH: Is the New ark of the new and better covenant. The one that no man has built with hands but that he Himself fashioned by HIS OWN STRENGTH ALONE! That is His chosen mother. The complete Covenant Ark not the obsolete.
Hebrews8:13
13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Those in Him are NOT obsolete and DO NOT FADE AWAY .They are eternal as He is Eternal. At the time Hebrews was first penned the OC was fading and it will be completely gone when God continues moving time forward in His judgements. Bringing about the passing away of time, making way for eternity. But for sure the wooded gold inlaid ark has been consummated to the earth in decay and the ARK of HIS STRENGTH= to whom HE has given strength to, is in HEAVEN in the Temple of God.
Psalm 132:7-9 , as many of the Psalms are, is a prophecy concerning the Lords resurrection and RISING to HIS REST taken WITH HIM THE ARK OF HIS STRENGTH!
And the GREATEST of these is LOVE!
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BreadOfLife
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Sooooooo, are you ever going to address my response to your "burden#2"?
Here it is again for your review:
For “burden” #2 – I’ll ask YOU a question:
Are YOU COMPLETELY (finished) and PERFECTLY filled with grace – or is God still working on your sanctification?
When will YOUR sanctification be finished and your completion of grace be perfected?
Who is Jesus' mother?
Jesus answers:
Matt 12
[50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother
Glory to God,
Taken
BOL addressed your insane post, that was simply unrecognizable doctrine . Hence, the question mark.
BreadOfLife
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Do you honestly believe that Jesus was literally calling everybody who does the Father’s will, His “Mother” – or was he simply speaking in general, symbolic terms?
Do you believe that Jesus followed the Law perfectly? The Law states explicitly to “Honor your Father and Mother”. For Jesus to literally call somebody ELSE His “Mother” would have been a great dishonor, thereby making Him a violator of the Law.
YOUR turn . . .
Typical.
Matthew 12:
46While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, His mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to Him.47Someone told Him, “Look, Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You.”
So what do we gather with verses 46-47? We can conclude that Christ was interrupted while speaking. WHY? Because OBVIOUSLY the SOMEONE thought it was a of HIGH PRIORITY to draw Jesus' attention to His mother and brothers. WHY? Because well , they HELD THEM IN HIGH REGARD. WHY?
FOR THE OBVIOUS, Jesus' MOTHER and BROTHERS, DUH! Right?
48But Jesus replied, “Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?” 49Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. 50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
And Jesus' reply means WHAT to you? What..... that He is breaking His own commandment and dishonoring His mother? No! He is responding to the SOMEONE and the crowd who OBVIOUSLY held His mother and brothers in HIGH ESTEEM, so much so that they felt it more important for Jesus to acknowledge them outside than to continue talking to them. So, Jesus is ENCOURAGING the SOMEONE and the CROWD to aspire to their highest Good which comes from doing the will of His Father in heaven and you then are the same as His mother WHO DOES THE WILL OF HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN, His brothers , WHO DO THE WILL OF HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN and are His Sisters who do the WILL OF HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN. They do their greatest good and they are EXAMPLES of obedience to the will of the father that WE ALL SHOULD ASPIRE TOWARD. He is not saying in a brush off manner "PUH! who is my mother and brothers, you are my mother and brothers, and sisters, not them." No! He is saying because the SOMEONE and the crowd held them in high regard , do what they do WHICH IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN and you will be just like them. But that standard was raised by Christ for all people to emulate .
So who is His mother? ONE WHO RAISED CHRIST, we should seek to do that for all we meet,who are His brothers? Those who follow suit in Christ and LOVE HIS MOTHER AND BROTHERS as He has loved them , AGAPE!
BreadOfLife
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Well with all due respect it does depend on who you ask. And the Greeks would disagree with you, it is their language after all. And Genesis is clear;"I will put Enmity between you and the Woman, between your seed and her seed. It does not say I will put enmity between you and the girl (baby, child) but the Woman ,and her seed. The Holy Spirit.... between her and the serpent and between her seed (child) and the serpents knowledge -influence . She was conceived as everyone else was through a man and woman. No where in the scriptures does it say anything about her mother conceiving in any other fashion. Your tradition is based on apocrypha which your tradition says, by definition: Apocrypha:writings or reports not considered genuine,(of a story or statement) of doubtful authenticity, although widely circulated as being true. SOUNDS LIKE AN OXYMORON.
So what tradition are you going with ? The tradition which holds that the Infant Gospel of James and the the Gospel of Mary are not reliable or the Tradition that uses these very same books CALLED UNRELIABLE and NOT CONSIDERED TO BE GENUINE as means by which to make doctrines? It would seem you are in a quagmire . And the Greeks know their own language. On earth as it is in heaven as I stated concerning the language all decrees are FIRST established in heaven. That is what predestination is. So of course set before the actual event and a pronouncement is that which is already decreed in heaven and then is fulfilled according to the WORD. And there is no exceptions in scripture that a human being be sinless outside of Christ Himself who takes AWAY THE SINS of the WORLD. As much as you want to argue your point the Mother of Christ too disagrees with you. "my soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior". As for being saved in the womb , it is clear, scripture reveals that only John the Baptist was saved in the womb and that happened at Elisabeth's sixth month, when the Ark of the new Covenant , having the Christ Child in her womb went to visit Elisabeth. That would be fulfilled the prophecy " from the womb he would be filled with the Holy Spirit". No where in scripture does it say that concerning Mother Miryam(Mary). But it does say the ENMITY would be placed between the serpent and THE WOMAN. Just saying.
And Kecharitomene means EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.
“Full of Grace” translates kecharitōmĕnē the perfect passive participle of charitŏō
to make graceful, endow with grace
Usage: I favor, bestow freely on.
It does not indicate a past event but an event that will come to pass, it simply is the feminine form of what Christ Himself is called. And not because she had this happen to her at her conception in her mother's womb either. But that it is a pronouncement of what is to be, from then on moving forward forever.
Unrecognizable doctrine?
Every point had a verifying Scripture.
Even Satan can recognize Scriptural doctrine, He simply is not given the Gift to Comprehend what the Scriptures mean...
Perhaps that also applies to you, like so many others that belief Scriptural doctrine is insane.
Glory to God,
Taken
BreadOfLife said: ↑
Jesus is FULLY Human...
Heb. 2:14-17
Since the children have flesh and blood, HE TOO SHARED IN THEIR HUMANITY .
So, your FULLY Human god had corrupt HUMAN BLOOD and shared in a Humans corrupt BEHAVIOR.
Okay, that can BE your god. Doesn't affect me.
Glory to God,
Taken
Well then better get believing that His chosen mother was holy sanctified for the event then. That would be the only other logical conclusion for you . The more you fight, it would seem you go from bad to worse. Clearly an Immaculate Conception happened, I believe it was at the annunciation which does make sense concerning being born again. She was conceived in the Life giving Spirit of Christ at the Annunciation and her Yes. Some believe it was in her mothers womb, but all TRUE followers of Christ believe either way, that she was Sanctified for this event- either way. So it would seem you would have to believe this to reconcile the Fact that Christ was PURE and born without sin right? Or.....you could abandon the faith all together and believe He was not what scripture says He is . Your choice , I would go with the Obvious better choice which reconciles your own conclusion, CHRIST WAS SINLESS because He sanctified His chosen mother through His and the Father's love- the Power of the Most High who over shadowed her.
Jesus is FULLY Human...
Heb. 2:14-17
Since the children have flesh and blood, HE TOO SHARED IN THEIR HUMANITY .
So, your FULLY Human god had corrupt HUMAN BLOOD and shared in a Humans corrupt BEHAVIOR.
Okay, that can BE your god. Doesn't affect me.
Glory to God,
Taken
Well then better get believing that His chosen mother was holy sanctified for the event then. That would be the only other logical conclusion for you . The more you fight, it would seem you go from bad to worse. Clearly an Immaculate Conception happened, I believe it was at the annunciation which does make sense concerning being born again. She was conceived in the Life giving Spirit of Christ at the Annunciation and her Yes. Some believe it was in her mothers womb, but all TRUE followers of Christ believe either way, that she was Sanctified for this event- either way. So it would seem you would have to believe this to reconcile the Fact that Christ was PURE and born without sin right? Or.....you could abandon the faith all together and believe He was not what scripture says He is . Your choice , I would go with the Obvious better choice which reconciles your own conclusion, CHRIST WAS SINLESS because He sanctified His chosen mother through His and the Father's love- the Power of the Most High who over shadowed her.
BreadOfLife
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Excuse me – but WHERE does Scripture say that everything we believe must be explicitly written down in Scripture??
NOWHERE do the Scriptures make this claim for themselves. This is a 16th century Protestant invention – NOT a Scriptural truth.
Secondly – Sacred Tradition is given to us in both the written and ORAL forms (2 Thess. 2:15). There is NO expiration date on this verse. Mary’s Immaculate Conception is gleaned from Scripture as well as Oral Tradition – NOT simply Oral Tradition.
Thirdly – you denigrate historical manuscripts like the Protoevangelium simply because they are not inspired. Do you hold to that same criteria for the Declaration of Independence or the Magna Carta? Are they NOT genuine because they were NOT breathed from God? This is a ridiculous standard.
This is the same nonsensical issue Protestants have with other historical documents like The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles) – written while the Apostles were STILL ALIVE. They claim it is NOT valid because it’s NOT inspired.
Is Paul’s Epistle to the Laodiceans that we read about in Col. 4:16 inspired?? Why isn’t it in the Bible?? Peter said that Paul’s letters were “Scripture” (2 Pet. 3:16).
Your stringent standards are unrealistic – and unbiblical.
We should be rejoicing because we have the distinct privilege of sitting as Judges and discussing the MOST glorious doctrine , the Word of God. We are blessed to be able to be made profitable by these discussions.
For instance BOL differs on certain things but we agree we love Christ , we love His mother and the apostles. So for us it is not a matter of salvation but intrigue concerning the mysteries of God. Truly a worth while endeavor . This has gone on since the Faith began. People discussed , debated those matters of God. God knowing the intentions of the heart is able to judge and hash thing out between the faithful. I respect BOL for keeping the fundamentals of the faith as have many before him. And those I could never argue against. I am humble,I esteem what I know is without a doubt true. I have no care if any esteem me, I am confident in My Lord . This part of the forum is the only part where true INTELLIGENT ,theological debate is had and Eschetology pondered. Peace to you all!
For instance BOL differs on certain things but we agree we love Christ , we love His mother and the apostles. So for us it is not a matter of salvation but intrigue concerning the mysteries of God. Truly a worth while endeavor . This has gone on since the Faith began. People discussed , debated those matters of God. God knowing the intentions of the heart is able to judge and hash thing out between the faithful. I respect BOL for keeping the fundamentals of the faith as have many before him. And those I could never argue against. I am humble,I esteem what I know is without a doubt true. I have no care if any esteem me, I am confident in My Lord . This part of the forum is the only part where true INTELLIGENT ,theological debate is had and Eschetology pondered. Peace to you all!
No. Did you not READ the Scripture?
Did you NOT READ, brother, sister, mother?
Father, mother, brother, sister are the closest relationship a person can have.
Jesus, excluded the relationship of "FATHER", as His Father is God...but INCLUDED the rest, mother, brother, sister AS HIS Closest relationship...with a Condition..."IF" they do the WILL of His/"the" Father.
The really cool thing about mans use of "symbolic, literal, non-literal...etc"...regarding Scripture, is ANY individual can Go around the truth to their favor, which does not always aline with Gods Truth.
If you believe Jesus...HIS bother, sister, mother are those that do the WILL of the Father (Period).
If you believe Jesus is the Christ, and the Christ is God...Then brother, sister, mother and gender, have NO relevance in a Spiritual Kingdom.
All are "sons" of ONE "Father".
The True Facts are more than quite sufficient.
Glory to God,
Taken
BreadOfLife
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