The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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reformed1689

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Sooooooo, are you ever going to address my response to your "burden#2"?
Here it is again for your review:

For “burden” #2 – I’ll ask YOU a question:
Are YOU COMPLETELY (finished) and PERFECTLY filled with grace – or is God still working on your sanctification?

When will YOUR sanctification be finished and your completion of grace be perfected?
When you actually satisfy burden number 1.
 

CovenantPromise

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Excuse me – but WHERE does Scripture say that everything we believe must be explicitly written down in Scripture??
NOWHERE
do the Scriptures make this claim for themselves. This is a 16th century Protestant invention – NOT a Scriptural truth.

Secondly – Sacred Tradition is given to us in both the written and ORAL forms (2 Thess. 2:15). There is NO expiration date on this verse. Mary’s Immaculate Conception is gleaned from Scripture as well as Oral TraditionNOT simply Oral Tradition.

Thirdly – you denigrate historical manuscripts like the Protoevangelium simply because they are not inspired. Do you hold to that same criteria for the Declaration of Independence or the Magna Carta? Are they NOT genuine because they were NOT breathed from God? This is a ridiculous standard.

This is the same nonsensical issue Protestants have with other historical documents like The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles) – written while the Apostles were STILL ALIVE. They claim it is NOT valid because it’s NOT inspired.

Is Paul’s Epistle to the Laodiceans that we read about in Col. 4:16 inspired?? Why isn’t it in the Bible?? Peter said that Paul’s letters were “Scripture” (2 Pet. 3:16).

Your stringent standards are unrealistic – and unbiblical.
Okay , okay take a chill pill. Rather.... where does it not say that? The only oral form was that spoken by the apostles until they wrote all things down and gave it to the Stewards who have preserved their WORDS. You have NOTHING without their MONUMENTAL something , no matter how you turn it. The scriptures are Holy Spirit inspired and those with the Holy Spirit can not- EVER contradict the scriptures . They are one as our God is. That is elementary. If it were the contrary, we would have Chaos! Good thing for Holy Spirit filled men and women, they know they are united to the scriptures by the VERY same Spirit which gave men the authority to write them. The Foundation- SCRIPTURE and the House are one as God is one and there is harmony which is SOLELY built upon the eternal Word of God. From the Jew to you and all built on the foundation, there is ALWAYS UNITY!
 
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CovenantPromise

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Nope.

He had the same flawed flesh and blood – but committed NO sin (1 Cor. 5:21, 1 Pet. 2:22).
The Scriptures says he was TEMPTED (Matt. 4:1-11). Only a true human being can be tempted.

He ascended to the Father in His GLORIFIED Body.
AHHH NOPE, He had NO flawed flesh or blood . You would know that if you understood the OC sacrifice! A lamb with NO blemish and He was that body and soul. God could not accept anything other! The Word of the Lord!
 

CovenantPromise

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Nope.

He had the same flawed flesh and blood – but committed NO sin (1 Cor. 5:21, 1 Pet. 2:22).
The Scriptures says he was TEMPTED (Matt. 4:1-11). Only a true human being can be tempted.

He ascended to the Father in His GLORIFIED Body.
You make no sense! Mother Mary is Immaculate yet Christ has flawed flesh and blood??? I guess rejecting some truth just grows like a weed until you have denied the Total Truth - THE PURITY OF CHRIST, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. taking sin upon you does not make you flawed in the flesh, burdened YES, flawed NO!
 

Nondenom40

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Doesn't cancel out James 2:24....stop cutting out passages from the bible you don't like.
No one is cutting anything out of the bible. James has been addressed ad infinitum. We look at the entire book, you laser focus on one verse. THATS your issue. Heres a challenge. Read the entire book in one setting. Its not long at all. James is dealing with things on our level, person to person. If someone says they are a christian he simply says 'show me'. Thats James in a nutshell. We cite verses that you completely ignore. Like Luke 7:50. Tell us what else was required of the woman in that verse other than faith, which Jesus clearly said is what saved her. What other qualifier did He give? None.
 

reformed1689

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No one is cutting anything out of the bible. James has been addressed ad infinitum. We look at the entire book, you laser focus on one verse. THATS your issue. Heres a challenge. Read the entire book in one setting. Its not long at all. James is dealing with things on our level, person to person. If someone says they are a christian he simply says 'show me'. Thats James in a nutshell. We cite verses that you completely ignore. Like Luke 7:50. Tell us what else was required of the woman in that verse other than faith, which Jesus clearly said is what saved her. What other qualifier did He give? None.
Notice they never address the verses that blow their theories out of the water.
 

BreadOfLife

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No. Did you not READ the Scripture?
Did you NOT READ, brother, sister, mother?

Father, mother, brother, sister are the closest relationship a person can have.

Jesus, excluded the relationship of "FATHER", as His Father is God...but INCLUDED the rest, mother, brother, sister AS HIS Closest relationship...with a Condition..."IF" they do the WILL of His/"the" Father.

The really cool thing about mans use of "symbolic, literal, non-literal...etc"...regarding Scripture, is ANY individual can Go around the truth to their favor, which does not always aline with Gods Truth.

If you believe Jesus...HIS bother, sister, mother are those that do the WILL of the Father (Period).

If you believe Jesus is the Christ, and the Christ is God...Then brother, sister, mother and gender, have NO relevance in a Spiritual Kingdom.
All are "sons" of ONE "Father".

The True Facts are more than quite sufficient.

Glory to God,
Taken
Okay – so YOU believe that YOU gave birth to Jesus and that He dishonored His Mother.
That’s not only heresy, it’s blasphemy – and it’s a really stupid conclusion.

Christians believe that Jesus was speaking in general symbolic terms when He made this statement.
In fact – my a second-grade Catechism students understood this . . .
 

Nondenom40

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If we are compelled to do works then we don't need faith.....we would just do the works.

Cut James 2:24 out of the bible.....that's your problem...not mine. I believe all of Scripture: Faith without works is DEAD.
Are you people really this obtuse? Those not redeemed have works that God says are filthy rags. Those redeemed i.e. born again have been created for good works by God. So yes, faith in God, being born again is necessary to do the work of the kingdom which as born again believers we WANT to do. Youre arguing for the sake of arguing because what youre posting is nonsensical.
 

Nondenom40

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WRONG.

Apparently, you haven’t been paying attention to the conversation.

I have cited TWO NON-CATHOLIC scholarly sources for the definition of “Kecharitomene”.
And your entire ”full of grace” argument goes right OUT the window because I never claimed that this is the definition.

Full of grace is what catholics everywhere shoehorn into that word. Even the pope that proclaimed her ic;

Ineffabilis Deus- Pius #9 1854
"When the Fathers and writers of the Church meditated on the fact that the most Blessed Virgin was, in the name and by order of God himself, proclaimed full of grace by the Angel Gabriel..."

Kecharitomene is defined as completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace. It is a perfect participle that indicates a PAST event with a PERMANENT result.
And? Nada about any immaculate conception or being sinless. None of the lexicons say that. And will you be prepared to latch on to the perfect past participle as unbending as you are now when it refers to our salvation? Or do you pick and choose what doctrines you choose to believe so blindly?

When Jerome translated it into Latin – the closet thin he could find was “Gratia Plena”Full of Grace.
However – this is NOT accurate because it is FAR more than just “full” of grace. He could HARDLY translate it literally as:
“Hail, completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace, indicating a past event with a permanent result!
Instead, it was translated to “Hail, full of grace!”
Later, “Hail, favored one!”

It has lost a LOT in translation . . .
Jerome was a scholar. Youre telling us that he didn't know of any word in latin that translates to 'favor' or 'favored'? As much as i like Jerome, he goofed more than once. He also inserted penance into the latin vulgate. Something the rcc has taken and ran with.
PS - I noticed that ALL of you are still ignoring post #1213, where Mary is shown to b the Ark of the New Covenant.
There is no new ark of the covenant. If you knew and understood what the old ark meant, you would be introducing heresy. But i don't think catholics think that far ahead. If they can elevate mary to dizzying heights, who cares what the actual title means?
 

Nondenom40

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Sooooooo, are you ever going to address my response to your "burden#2"?
Here it is again for your review:

For “burden” #2 – I’ll ask YOU a question:
Are YOU COMPLETELY (finished) and PERFECTLY filled with grace – or is God still working on your sanctification?

When will YOUR sanctification be finished and your completion of grace be perfected?
So now Luke 1:28 is referring to sanctification? Youre throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks. And you keep adding to the definition what is not even there. Your posts smack of desperation.
 

CovenantPromise

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Full of grace is what catholics everywhere shoehorn into that word. Even the pope that proclaimed her ic;

Ineffabilis Deus- Pius #9 1854
"When the Fathers and writers of the Church meditated on the fact that the most Blessed Virgin was, in the name and by order of God himself, proclaimed full of grace by the Angel Gabriel..."


And? Nada about any immaculate conception or being sinless. None of the lexicons say that. And will you be prepared to latch on to the perfect past participle as unbending as you are now when it refers to our salvation? Or do you pick and choose what doctrines you choose to believe so blindly?

Jerome was a scholar. Youre telling us that he didn't know of any word in latin that translates to 'favor' or 'favored'? As much as i like Jerome, he goofed more than once. He also inserted penance into the latin vulgate. Something the rcc has taken and ran with.

There is no new ark of the covenant. If you knew and understood what the old ark meant, you would be introducing heresy. But i don't think catholics think that far ahead. If they can elevate mary to dizzying heights, who cares what the actual title means?

It is dizzying to those in the doctrine of devils for sure. Still.... no evidence against her not being (THE NEW ARK , you must not have read the Psalms). You do know arguments against or for must be represented by rational and empirical evidence . Of which NONE, has been presented by you. Your lowliest opinion has been , and it only verifies evidence of your willfully blind stupidity. Nothing to the contrary I am afraid.

As a logical person, I approach the foundation of the Intelligent Designer, as meekly as possible, knowing I am not dealing with a fool and would NEVER insult His intelligence . See, I look at the rational language of His Word and view the empirical evidence held within that would support any man's (of any denomination) claims. Without bias, I first take it from his point of view and ask......does this scripture support the claims presented? There should be Empirical evidence, which is information that verifies the truth which accurately corresponds to reality or the evidence will show its falsity .

However , people like you do not look at the evidence that one points to, you look for some other evidence which will support your claim. THE KICKER.....what you actually pull from, is unrelated text, that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed. Example: Someone will be upholding belief in Faith and Works as One. People like you then go find a scripture which speaks of us not being saved by works or our own merit, but by Grace. When that has NOTHING to do with the Faith and Works being presented. Clearly, any work done outside of Christ can not save anyone.
That is why other religions are not the way. But once one says YES to Mercy (Christ) and is saved by Grace, we then have Faith and Works which cannot be separated , they are one, that means UNITED in Christ. The works others do outside of Christ are not united in Him because they are not in Faith in HIM. They have no FAITH and their works are separated from Him thus they are .

So, people like you misapply one work based scripture against one that is about faith and works as one. GET IT? You actually try to divide the Word . Another example with empirical evidence which is always based in rational judgement: When one esteems and venerates a saint , people like you put the scripture " There is ONE MEDIATOR between men and God and that is Jesus Christ" when Christ also says: " As the Father has sent me I send you, and breathing on them He said , receive the Holy Spirit, who sins you forgive , they are forgiven, whose sins you do not forgive they are not forgiven. Go! baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, making disciples of all nations , teaching them all I commanded you". Also: "outdo yourselves in honoring one another" and/or "esteem those highly who labor among you and are OVER you. "AS" means in like manner, not replacing, but making MEDIATORS between men and Christ to bring men to their salvation. And esteeming those who have labored for us and are over us is a command , that according to scripture alone!

but as I said you will ignore that evidence and focus on what you want to see. You and the like are all simply pretext with no Context therefore have no substantive value.
 

CovenantPromise

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Why?

You believe God ONLY chooses the holy sanctified to do His WILL?

Glory to God,
Taken
Clearly, as all in Christ are holy- sanctified in HIM. If you are not a Christian to begin with then what are you doing giving opinion on Christian doctrine or telling Christian's their business?
 

Taken

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He had the same flawed flesh and blood – but committed NO sin (1 Cor. 5:21, 1 Pet. 2:22).

WHAT? You think Jesus' BLOOD was FLAWED...CORRUPTED? WOW...

No wonder, your WASHING in Jesus' BLOOD was a FAIL!

The Scriptures says he was TEMPTED (Matt. 4:1-11). Only a true human being can be tempted.

False. You have been Explained this before.

ANYONE can be TEMPTED, which means ANYONE can be the TARGET of A TEMPTER.

A TEMPTER is one who OFFERS a proposal to another.

The Other is being TEMPTED, by Hearing the TEMPTER.

Satan was the TEMPTER.

Jesus HEARD Satan's OFFER.

"IF" Satan's OFFERING had been "TEMPT-ING" to Jesus...Jesus WOULD HAVE Considered Satan's Offer.

Jesus NEVER "Considered" Satan's OFFER.

Jesus IMMEDIATELY "Rejected" Satan's OFFER.

It was a LESSON to Mankind...
EVIL WILL Tempt men.
LEARN HOW to IMMEDIATELY "REJECT" Evil.

Eve was TEMPTED....and DID NOT IMMEDIATELY "reject" EVIL.
Eve "ENGAGED" Evil....she gave EVIL her Attention...LOOKING AT him, SPEAKING TO him, LISTENING TO him, and Finally SHE reached up and herself TOOK the forbidden fruit and ate of it.

That IS the ACT of "FALLING INTO TEMPTATION".

Only a true human being can be tempted.

In YOUR CASE of belief and understanding, that IS your truth, Because your god IS a Human.

That is NOT my belief or understanding.
My God IS NOT a created human. My God IS the creater OF humans. My God was TEMPTED (made offers) BY His human creations and BY His spiritual creations....
And instantly REJECTED both.

Num 14:
[22] Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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Clearly, as all in Christ are holy- sanctified in HIM. If you are not a Christian to begin with then what are you doing giving opinion on Christian doctrine or telling Christian's their business?

First of all, I am "entitled" to Speak what I believe.
Secondly, My "standing" IN and WITH the Lord God IS between the Lord God and me, and well established with people I KNOW.

You have butted in on conversations Between myself and another and come unhinged hurling your snarky remarks, accusations and lectures at me.

I don't know you.
How did you qualify yourself to PERTEND you KNOW ME, my belief, my standing with my Lord God?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

CovenantPromise

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First of all, I am "entitled" to Speak what I believe.
Secondly, My "standing" IN and WITH the Lord God IS between the Lord God and me, and well established with people I KNOW.

You have butted in on conversations Between myself and another and come unhinged hurling your snarky remarks, accusations and lectures at me.

I don't know you.
How did you qualify yourself to PERTEND you KNOW ME, my belief, my standing with my Lord God?

Glory to God,
Taken
No actually you made it everyone's business by publicly making everyone aware of your beliefs. If you want to keep them between you and God , you might want to stay off of forums. THAT IS NOT A COMMAND but a suggestion. As for butting in, then take it to messaging , and I do not see you having a problem interjecting when you feel like it. I do not have to pretend I know you , a person is known by their WORKS. As for your heart, you should guard it diligently for out of it come forth the issues of life. God knows you well for sure. Snarky remarks , no that is you, emphatic TRUTH -that is me at you , lectures admittedly and NO REGRETS because I have not said anything regrettable . That is what happens when you lean on the Beloved, NO REGRETS!
 

Taken

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If you are not a Christian to begin with then what are you doing giving opinion on Christian doctrine?

What is your definition of a Christian?

What is your definition of Christian doctrine?

Glory to God,
Taken