The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[reformed1689]

I never cut out Ephesian's and have previously said we are saved by grace. I agree with ALL of Scripture. YOU DON'T.

We are saved by the grace of God and our faith leads us to baptism and works......Just like Scripture says.

How can you look at it in context and then disagree with it????

But our works do not save us.

 

[reformed1689]

You don't know what he did before he died since Scripture doesn't tell us.

It doesn't matter what he did before.

He could have been a really good person.

There are none that are righteous.

Maybe he just made that one bad mistake in his life: stealing. Sooooo how can you say he had no opportunity to do anything? Now you are ADDING to Scripture.

No, I am reading what Scripture actually says. Salvation has nothing to do with being a "good person." There is no such thing as a "good person" without Christ.

 

[reformed1689]

Are you going to keep dodgeing or answer my question:

As a Christian do you do works? If so, WHY?

I haven't dodged anything. We do good works BECAUSE of our faith. How many times do I have to say that?

 

[reformed1689]

You have to work (read/research Scripture to see if it is true) to obtain faith.

Where is that in Scripture?

It just isn't given to you. Even after you have faith (belief) you still have to work on that belief (possibly by defending your belief) otherwise you could loose faith.

Where is any of this in Scripture?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actually you have to burdens before you get to that.

1. You have to show that the word means completely and perfectly as opposed to just favored and endowed with grace. You have not met that burden.
2. You then have to show how being complete and perfectly full of grace equates sinless. You have not met that burden either. You just claim that it is so.

For “burden” #1 – I already presented this evidence. Here is some NON-CATHOLIC scholarly sources . . .

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament)

There is no question of a "secondary" reality, one that would have touched her only ulteriorly. Rather, it pertains to the very identity of Mary. Moreover, the appellation κεχαριτωμένη, in all of Scripture, is reserved to Mary, as if it were her special mark. In fact, some have tried to see in the parallel with Gideon, a demonstration that the κεχαριτωμένη would refer only to a grace that is to come, one to follow immediately. For Gideon is called "valiant warrior" at a time when he is not yet such; therefore κεχαριτωμένη would signify a grace that is not present before the angel's greeting. However, as contrasted with what concerns Gideon, the angel does not apply to Mary a noun bracketed with an adjective, but a perfect participle, a verbal form that refers to a past that is prolonged in the present. Therefore, it is before the angel's greeting, before the Incarnation, that Mary is κεχαριτωμένη. (Kecharitomene (Lk. 1:28) in the Light of Gen. 18:16-33: A Matter of Quantity François Rossier University of Dayton)

Kecharitōmĕnē is the perfect passive participle of charitŏō. It denotes one who has been and still is the object of divine benevolence, one who has been favored and continues to be favored by God, one who has been granted supernatural grace and remains in this state.[1] Verbs ending in ŏō, such as haimatŏō (turn into blood), thaumatŏō (fill with wonder), spodŏōmai (burn to ashes) frequently express the full intensity of the action. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action. (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b.)


For “burden” #2 – I’ll ask YOU a question:
Are YOU COMPLETELY (finished) and PERFECTLY filled with grace – or is God still working on your sanctification?

When will YOUR sanctification be finished and your completion of grace be perfected?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Where is that in Scripture?
Where is any of this in Scripture?

Right HERE.
God's grace requires our cooperation . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was NEVER there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they NEVER had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[reformed1689]

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament)

Notice the word "Paraphrase" in other words, that is not the literal meaning.

There is no question of a "secondary" reality, one that would have touched her only ulteriorly. Rather, it pertains to the very identity of Mary. Moreover, the appellation κεχαριτωμένη, in all of Scripture, is reserved to Mary, as if it were her special mark. In fact, some have tried to see in the parallel with Gideon, a demonstration that the κεχαριτωμένη would refer only to a grace that is to come, one to follow immediately. For Gideon is called "valiant warrior" at a time when he is not yet such; therefore κεχαριτωμένη would signify a grace that is not present before the angel's greeting. However, as contrasted with what concerns Gideon, the angel does not apply to Mary a noun bracketed with an adjective, but a perfect participle, a verbal form that refers to a past that is prolonged in the present. Therefore, it is before the angel's greeting, before the Incarnation, that Mary is κεχαριτωμένη. (Kecharitomene (Lk. 1:28) in the Light of Gen. 18:16-33: A Matter of Quantity François Rossier University of Dayton)

Catholic resource.

Kecharitōmĕnē is the perfect passive participle of charitŏō. It denotes one who has been and still is the object of divine benevolence, one who has been favored and continues to be favored by God, one who has been granted supernatural grace and remains in this state.[1] Verbs ending in ŏō, such as haimatŏō (turn into blood), thaumatŏō (fill with wonder), spodŏōmai (burn to ashes) frequently express the full intensity of the action. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action. (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b.)

This is acceptable but doesn't say sinless. Sorry. You have not satisfied the first requirement.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Notice the word "Paraphrase" in other words, that is not the literal meaning.

Catholic resource.

This is acceptable but doesn't say sinless. Sorry. You have not satisfied the first requirement.

WRONG.

Do you even understand what “paraphrase” means?
It simply means to put something in your own words – usually, in more comprehensible terms. Kecharitomene being explained in laymen’s terms. THAT’S what “paraphrase“ means.

YOUR rejection of this evidence is just more of your cowardly nonsense for everybody here to see . . .


PS - Are you going to address the Scriptural case I made for Mary as Ark of the New Covenant - or will you continue to run??

 

[reformed1689]

WRONG.

Do you even understand what “paraphrase” means?
It simply means to put something in your own words – usually, in more comprehensible terms. Kecharitomene being explained in laymen’s terms. THAT’S what “paraphrase“ means.

YOUR rejection of this evidence is just more of your cowardly nonsense for everybody here to see . . .


PS - Are you going to address the Scriptural case I made for Mary as Ark of the New Covenant - or will you continue to run??

One thing at a time. Your Ark case is built on Mary's sinlessness which you still have not proven.

 

[Taken]

Sure the Lord has been with many others before Mother Mary but SHE IS BLESSED AMONG WOMEN - that means all women.

So there is something unique and exceptional that God has done for her that was done for no other.

Clearly you point out ONE exceptional thing (THE VIRGIN CONCEPTION) Immaculate because it is by the Holy Spirit. So, that for one proves she is the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION for who else was given such a Conception? 2. She would have to abide in receiving the Holy Seed because John the Beloved ( who interestingly , was given the care of the Mother of Christ) said so. That means she is a VIRGIN soul, a Holy Righteous, unblemished vessel according to Paul, because she is righteous because Christ is. I mean really , your point? Clearly she would have to be the FIRST to be what the apostles all say our end game is- Immaculate= Virgin , unblemished, unsoiled ,chaste followers of Christ ! Clearly![/QUOTE]

 

[CovenantPromise]

WRONG.

Apparently, you haven’t been paying attention to the conversation.

I have cited TWO NON-CATHOLIC scholarly sources for the definition of “Kecharitomene”.
And your entire ”full of grace” argument goes right OUT the window because I never claimed that this is the definition.
Kecharitomene is defined as completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace. It is a perfect participle that indicates a PAST event with a PERMANENT result.

When Jerome translated it into Latin – the closet thin he could find was “Gratia Plena” – Full of Grace.
However – this is NOT accurate because it is FAR more than just “full” of grace. He could HARDLY translate it literally as:
“Hail, completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace, indicating a past event with a permanent result!”
Instead, it was translated to “Hail, full of grace!”
Later, “Hail, favored one!”

It has lost a LOT in translation . . .

PS - I noticed that ALL of you are still ignoring post #1213, where Mary is shown to b the Ark of the New Covenant.

So now I will speak Greek because we have a little problem with what you are saying. First let me emphasis I DO NOT QUESTION ANYTHING GOD DID FOR MOTHER MIRYAM (MARY). I get her role and love her regardless of all the debates and interps. Some things are elementary and she is FULL OF GRACE= Highly favored. With that said, there is some bias with your interp of Kecharitmene .
“Full of Grace” translates kecharitōmĕnē the perfect passive participle of charitŏō
to make graceful, endow with grace
Usage: I favor, bestow freely on.
It does not indicate a past event, it simply is the feminine form of what Christ Himself is called. And not because she had this happen to her at her conception in her mother's womb either. But that it is a pronouncement of what is to be, from then on moving forward forever.

favor highly

From charis; to grace, i.e. Indue with special honor -- make accepted, be highly favoured.

Kecharitmene
(Ke)-is the greeting, (charit) Present tense -Graced One ( MEANING AT THAT MOMENT OF THE ANGELS MESSAGE SHE IS BEING GRACED BY HIS (God's) PRESENTS- Hence , the Lord is with you), (Mene) -feminine making the greeting to a woman
John 1:14
says that Jesus was plErEs charitos, which literally means "full of grace." (Those capital Es are present etas, so pronounce them like the e in "they"; the word is thus pronounced PLAY-RACE).

Luke 1:28 uses kecharitomene, which literally means "one who has been graced" or "woman who has been graced" (since the gender is female). It doesn’t literally mean "full of grace," But people use poetic license , C'est la vie!
This is simply stating a decree WHICH FIRST TAKES PLACE IN HEAVEN. It does not mean, as you imply (at the moment of her conception in her mothers womb that she is Immaculate then. But rather, as being a predestined Elect Jew, it was decreed in heaven that she would be the God Bearer. She is the Graced one because God has graced her with His presents. We cannot forget, Miryam was a righteous Jewish girl who obeyed Torah. It is not like she was some sick twisted person. She was a child of Abraham and was a practicing, observant Jewish girl, from a Godly Jewish family. She had sin but minor not a major sinner,the basics you know ancestral or original sin! So I do not get the fixation on her being Saved too! CLEARLY THAT IS WHY CHRIST CAME. I mean she did say that: "My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior". This is not complicated. If she was Immaculate at her conception in her mother's womb she would not respond like that .God Graced her with His presents and perfected her for Himself. Her words are clear , they indicate an ACT OF SALVATION FOR HER, PERIOD!

And don't give me , " Do you have a problem with her not knowing she was Perfect , she was humble and did not know." So she called herself a sinner because she was humble? I DON'T THINK SO! It is more like this:

1 John 1:
Walking in the Light
…7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…



Here Stephen is called exactly what Jesus is called. Many make a big deal out of it. This to compare him to Mother Miryam (Mary) and Jesus for that matter. WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL? We are suppose to be like Jesus, we are to walk like Jesus walked and we are RIGHTEOUS AS Jesus is RIGHTEOUS , just as He planned.
Acts 6:8 refers to Stephen as plErEs charitos, so again it’s literally "full of grace" and just the same as the description used of Jesus in John 1:14.

I have studied ALL the denominations doctrines. they all have something worth looking at. But there are somethings that should be thrown out! Mother Miryam was Saved and sanctified at her YES to what the angel said which was DECREED in heaven FIRST about her and then made so. And was fulfilled at her YES, that it be done according to the WORD spoken to her. THE WORD FIRST HAD TO COME HER and He did, at that moment of the salutation of the Messenger of God! THE WORD OF THE LORD, THANKS BE TO GOD!

 

[CovenantPromise]

FUN FACT: Did you know a woman is saved through child bearing? That according to Christian doctrine.

FUN FACT: Did you know there in no mother to fetal blood exchange . Through the miracle of life, a baby produces his own blood? Only if there is trauma, like a sickness or accident can their blood mix. FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

 

[Philip James]

Jesus was in Mary's Womb...Not Christ.
Jesus came forth from Mary's Womb, Not Christ.

Dear Taken,

Jesus IS the Christ. To speak of Jesus is to speak of Christ. And to speak of Christ is to speak of Jesus.

Christ most certainly DID come forth from Mary's womb. Let heaven and earth rejoice!

The angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I proclaim to you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord.

Peace be with you!

 

[reformed1689]

Dear Taken,

Jesus IS the Christ. To speak of Jesus is to speak of Christ. And to speak of Christ is to speak of Jesus.

Christ most certainly DID come forth from Mary's womb. Let heaven and earth rejoice!

The angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I proclaim to you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord.

Peace be with you!

@Taken I have to agree with @Philip James here. Christ was born of Mary. He was before, since he was in the beginning, but his flesh was born of Mary.

 

[Taken]

Clearly! Hence, why wisdom baffles you. "Flimsy accusations" and "lectures" hmm....seems no intelligent discussion will be had with you.

"Precisely identify my word(s) that have set you on an accusatory mission."

Words with no (substance)- KNOWN AS PROOF are accusations. Which is all you spew against what I post and what any follower in commonsense post. CLEARLY! As I said God appeals to our right reason.His equations have sums which make sense. Hence , why scripture is PROFITABLE for doctrine. But be careful how you build. Obviously God gives believers the ability to deduce SUMS based on the language and symbolism of His words. It makes perfect sense that mother Mary is the New Ark of the new and better Covenant simply based on who Christ is. Yet people like you go on a dumb blindness tour and deny the OBVIOUS language of the scriptures. If your doctrine makes no sense and contradicts the equation of the written word, it is simply hay , wood and straw . The foundation will burn it down and you then reap what you sow afterward. This is no dress rehearsal !

Precisely identify my word(s) that have set you on an accusatory mission.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Dear Taken,

Jesus IS the Christ. To speak of Jesus is to speak of Christ. And to speak of Christ is to speak of Jesus.

Christ most certainly DID come forth from Mary's womb. Let heaven and earth rejoice!

Disagree.

Phil 2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

The Word of God came forth out from God...

Isa 55
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The thing?

Luke 1
[31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb...

Luke 1
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

John 16
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Mark 13
[32] But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Why did Jesus, the Son of God, NOT KNOW?

Don't you believe He is ALL-Knowing?

Point being....ORDER.

The Word of God came forth out of Gods Mouth and was Sent to Mary's Womb, in a body prepared of God....in the Likeness of men....and WITHOUT His "reputation".

His "reputation" IS, He IS the Christ, but He did not come to Earth "as" the Christ. He came to Earth "as" the Son of God, and by the Name "Jesus", and bit by bit His "reputation" began to come down from Heaven, and Revealed to mankind.

They began to call Him Rabbi, Teacher, Lord...
Bit by bit He began Turning water into wine, healing the sick, reviving the dead...
^ His Reputation coming down from Heaven unto Him.
Men began to wonder if He was Elijah or John the Baptist.

Jesus asked His Disciples...
WHO DO YOU SAY THAT I AM...

Who could answer? How would they KNOW, He was their Christ Messiah? Scripture tells us...

Matt 16
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

How did you learn Jesus IS the Christ?
From flesh and blood men?

Point being...You are saying;

Christ most certainly DID come forth from Mary's womb.

It was the Word of God...that holy Thing that was sent to Mary's womb and came forth from Mary's womb, in the likeness of men, in a body prepared of God, without Reputation, in a body of flesh to be Given FOR the life of the world.

John 6
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jesus...The Christ, was revealed during His ministry....not at his earthly birth.

(It would be like saying; A woman, whose son is a lawyer, and her claiming, or rather, others claiming she gave birth to a lawyer...when in fact she gave birth to a son, who became a lawyer.)

Mary gave birth to Jesus, she didn't give Him Life. God is Life, Jesus is Life, and His Seed IS Life.

Jesus IS the Christ, however Jesus was not born from Mary's womb, AS the Christ.

The Christ, IS the Spirit, Wisdom and Power of God.

1 Cor 1
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Had Mary birthed Christ...He would have known "that day".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

@Taken I have to agree with @Philip James here. Christ was born of Mary. He was before, since he was in the beginning, but his flesh was born of Mary.

I responded with my perspective post #1436.

Feedback welcome.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

I responded with my perspective post #1436.

Feedback welcome.

Glory to God,
Taken

THis needs to be a whole other thread.

 

[Taken]

THis needs to be a whole other thread.

Maybe so. I was speaking of Order. This thread is about purgatory , Mary's natural born sinlessness.



Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CovenantPromise]

Disagree.

Phil 2
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

The Word of God came forth out from God...

Isa 55
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The thing?

Luke 1
[31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb...

Luke 1
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

John 16
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Mark 13
[32] But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Why did Jesus, the Son of God, NOT KNOW?

Don't you believe He is ALL-Knowing?

Point being....ORDER.

The Word of God came forth out of Gods Mouth and was Sent to Mary's Womb, in a body prepared of God....in the Likeness of men....and WITHOUT His "reputation".

His "reputation" IS, He IS the Christ, but He did not come to Earth "as" the Christ. He came to Earth "as" the Son of God, and by the Name "Jesus", and bit by bit His "reputation" began to come down from Heaven, and Revealed to mankind.

They began to call Him Rabbi, Teacher, Lord...
Bit by bit He began Turning water into wine, healing the sick, reviving the dead...
^ His Reputation coming down from Heaven unto Him.
Men began to wonder if He was Elijah or John the Baptist.

Jesus asked His Disciples...
WHO DO YOU SAY THAT I AM...

Who could answer? How would they KNOW, He was their Christ Messiah? Scripture tells us...

Matt 16
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

How did you learn Jesus IS the Christ?
From flesh and blood men?

Point being...You are saying;



It was the Word of God...that holy Thing that was sent to Mary's womb and came forth from Mary's womb, in the likeness of men, in a body prepared of God, without Reputation, in a body of flesh to be Given FOR the life of the world.

John 6
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jesus...The Christ, was revealed during His ministry....not at his earthly birth.

(It would be like saying; A woman, whose son is a lawyer, and her claiming, or rather, others claiming she gave birth to a lawyer...when in fact she gave birth to a son, who became a lawyer.)

Mary gave birth to Jesus, she didn't give Him Life. God is Life, Jesus is Life, and His Seed IS Life.

Jesus IS the Christ, however Jesus was not born from Mary's womb, AS the Christ.

The Christ, IS the Spirit, Wisdom and Power of God.

1 Cor 1
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Had Mary birthed Christ...He would have known "that day".

Glory to God,
Taken