Rapture Day (Catching up of Believers) is very Near!!

[Truth]

Please explain more about your "stretch their legs" aspect

Matthew 27:51-53
51- Then, Behold, the Veil of the Temple was torn in two, from Top to Bottom; and the Earth Quaked, and the Rock was Split!
52- And the Graves were Opened; and Many Bodies of the Saints Who Had Fallen Asleep were Raised;
53- And coming Out of the Graves, After HIS Resurrection, they [ these Saints of Old] Went into the Holy City and Appeared to Many!!!

Stretch Their was just an Metaphor so to speak.LOL

 

[Stranger]

Yes; we Christians are Promised Eternal life. John 3:16
But we still die and it is only at the Great White Throne Judgment, that all the people who have ever lived will stand before God and immortality is given to those who have proved worthy.

No mercy or grace there.

Stranger

 

[Copperhead]

Church doctrines aren't always CORRECT, -- and neither are "Prophets". So we must judge according to Scripture, not men. But some men believe EVERYTHING other men say. -- I prefer to believe Scripture.

So, I glean from this statement in the context of your post that you see no difference between righteous dead and unrighteous dead. I am not sure that lines up with scripture.

 

[Copperhead]

people who have ever lived will stand before God and immortality is given to those who have proved worthy.

From what I glean from scripture is that the redeemed already have eternal life, or immortality. No judgement required in terms of eternal life, only judgement to determine rewards for faithful service. Sure, our present bodies are not immortal, but we are. These bodies are just temporary housing units for us.

1 John 3:14 (NKJV) We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

That statement implies that it is already a done deal. Already happened, past tense.

Romans 6:22-23 (NKJV) But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Not sure that we "earn" or are "proved worthy" of a gift. A gift, by definition, is unmerited. Again, it is Messiah who makes us worthy and when we accept and trust Him, we are given the gift of eternal life.

If we want to get hyper literal.... everyone has immortality the moment they are conceived. Some have eternal life and some will experience eternal damnation. But we all are immortal.

And your comment "proved worthy". That seems to imply eternal life is a conditioned upon something we do, not what Yeshua has done. I could be reading your intention wrong there. But It is Messiah who makes us worthy when we place our trust in Him, not anything we can do. Anything that adds to what Messiah has done to make us worthy starts encroaching on "another gospel".

 

[Bobby Jo]

Matthew 27:51-53
51- Then, Behold, the Veil of the Temple was torn in two, from Top to Bottom; and the Earth Quaked, and the Rock was Split!
52- And the Graves were Opened; and Many Bodies of the Saints Who Had Fallen Asleep were Raised;
53- And coming Out of the Graves, After HIS Resurrection, they [ these Saints of Old] Went into the Holy City and Appeared to Many!!!

Stretch Their was just an Metaphor so to speak.LOL

Hey "Truth",

I guess I don't have a problem with people who would have died in childbirth, except or doctors; or people who would have died at a young age, except for medicine; or people who would have died at middle age except for surgery; or people would would have died at a later age, except for resuscitation; or people who did die at whatever age, except for being resurrected. Death is inevitable regardless of any delay or interjection, even after dying once.

OR, maybe a person can be pronounced "clinically dead" and be revived, -- and then live forever!


Do people think otherwise?
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

Keraz said: ↑
Yes; we Christians are Promised Eternal life. John 3:16
But we still die and it is only at the Great White Throne Judgment, that all the people who have ever lived will stand before God and immortality is given to those who have proved worthy.

Ummmmmmm, we are already created with immortal spirits. And that "worm" dieth not.


Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

In all fairness, we kinda tackled Keraz's choice of words. It is likely that he was meaning eternal life as opposed to immortality.

 

[Bobby Jo]

In all fairness, we kinda tackled Keraz's choice of words. It is likely that he was meaning eternal life as opposed to immortality.

There's no difference between "immortality" and living "eternally". -- The only aspect is whether they apply equally to heaven and hell. GOD would not be FAIR if HE had different rules for different choices. And so each person decides to either be with GOD or satan.


Is "FAIR" -- NOT FAIR?
Bobby Jo

 

[Keraz]

No mercy or grace there.

Stranger

No proper understanding of Bible truths from you.

So, I glean from this statement in the context of your post that you see no difference between righteous dead and unrighteous dead. I am not sure that lines up with scripture.

This was to BJ, but my reply is: ALL the dead remain in the grave until the end of the Millennium, when they ALL will stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 The only exception is the Trib martyrs, that Jesus will bring back to life, at His Return. Rev 20:4
Note this isn't immortality, they may die again, but like Lazarus and the OT saints, Matthew 27:53-43, their second death has no power over them and they will automatically receive immortality at the GWT Judgment.

From what I glean from scripture is that the redeemed already have eternal life, or immortality. No judgement required in terms of eternal life, only judgement to determine rewards for faithful service. Sure, our present bodies are not immortal, but we are. These bodies are just temporary housing units for us.

This is Bible ABC; John 3:16. The Promise of Eternal Life.
BUT, it is possible to lose that Promise, as we all have seen people who have renounced God.
When the Book of Life is opened at the end of the Millennium, THEN, it will be seen who has kept faithful and who, in their hearts or by their actions; has not. Proved worthy; by our faith and trust in God.

Ummmmmmm, we are already created with immortal spirits. And that "worm" dieth not.

The soul that sins, shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

In all fairness, we kinda tackled Keraz's choice of words. It is likely that he was meaning eternal life as opposed to immortality.

Eternal life and immortality; they are the same thing and are not given to any human until the final Judgment, at the end of God's 7000 year Plan for mankind.

There's no difference between "immortality" and living "eternally". -- The only aspect is whether they apply equally to heaven and hell. GOD would not be FAIR if HE had different rules for different choices. And so each person decides to either be with GOD or satan.
Is "FAIR" -- NOT FAIR?
Bobby Jo

I actually do not believe in Eternal Damnation for the wicked. Revelation 20:15 says the Lake of Fire is the second death. It will be annihilation.

 

[Bobby Jo]

The soul that sins, shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

We all sin, we all die*, that is our soul. But our spirits are eternal, whether in Heaven or Hell.

* Except those who are raptured at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.​

I guess we haven't even mastered the milk of the word, but people think they're ready to PREACH THE MEAT.
Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

Note this isn't immortality, they may die again, but like Lazarus and the OT saints, Matthew 27:53-43, their second death has no power over them and they will automatically receive immortality at the GWT Judgment.

But there is no textual evidence that those OT saints resurrected in Matthew 27 ever died again. That is pure conjecture with no scriptural support.

Many of the early church writers who knew the Apostles or were in close association with those who did, they wrote that those saints of Matthew 27 were take to the Father by Yeshua (Jesus). Now that doesn't make for an ironclad case, but they would be considered primary source material, so it is reasoned to assume that what they said is true.

 

[Copperhead]

Eternal life and immortality; they are the same thing and are not given to any human until the final Judgment, at the end of God's 7000 year Plan for mankind.

So you then believe in the concept of Annihilationism? Maybe some form of doctrine that the ungodly are destroyed forever. No eternal punishment for the ungodly?

The argument is probably more over semantics. All people have immortality. Every person conceived will live forever. But it is a matter of where they will live. Will they live forever in the presence of the Lord, what many mean when they say eternal life, or will they live forever in punishment and torment.

It also becomes a physics issue. Time is a physical property and varies based on gravity, mass, acceleration, etc. A soul has no mass. So a soul is not subject to the dimensionality of time. It is like computer software. I can take a flash drive and load it with $500 worth of software. When I weight the flash drive, it weighs no more than when it was empty. I can transmit that $500 worth of software over the internet. Software has no mass. A soul has no mass. And a soul is the software that makes up a person. So everyone is immortal and has eternal life. It just becomes a matter of where that life is spent.... in glory or in condemnation.

 

[Copperhead]

I actually do not believe in Eternal Damnation for the wicked. Revelation 20:15 says the Lake of Fire is the second death. It will be annihilation.

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV) And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:43-44 (NKJV) hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.'

What part of "everlasting" is not "everlasting"? That would be a contradiction. If everlasting does not mean everlasting, then does eternal life not mean eternal?

 

[ReChoired]

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV) And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:43-44 (NKJV) hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.'

What part of "everlasting" is not "everlasting"? That would be a contradiction. If everlasting does not mean everlasting, then does eternal life not mean eternal?

The "punishment" for sin is "death", not "torment". The 2nd death will be eternal, everlasting, from which there is no returning to life. Gone forever. It says, "punishment", not "punishing". God is "long-suffering", not eternally suffering the wicked to exist. Jesus "once suffered" for sin, and suffers no more, for suffering must have an end, not a prolongation. It is suffering (torment) unto Death (end).

"Quench" is a verb, which means to deliberately put out. The fires of Jerusalem when it burned under the hand of Nebuchadnezzar were also said to be unquenchable. That city is not still burning from that time to today. It burned unto ashes and went out of itself.

 

[Keraz]

* Except those who are raptured at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

Thats a new idea! But just like the rest of the ideas of the 'rapture' theory, it is quite wrong.
Those whose names are found in the Book of Life will live forever with God on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

But there is no textual evidence that those OT saints resurrected in Matthew 27 ever died again. That is pure conjecture with no scriptural support.

The Scriptural support for death after being brought back to life and after rotting in the grave, is Lazarus, John 11:21-27...Whoever has faith in Me shall live, even though he dies. Lazarus did die again, for the second time; but he will rise again on the Last Day. Which is at the end of the Millennium. Just as those OT saints will and Daniel 12:13 as well.

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV) And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:43-44 (NKJV) hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.'

What part of "everlasting" is not "everlasting"? That would be a contradiction. If everlasting does not mean everlasting, then does eternal life not mean eternal?

Everlasting in that context, means no reprieve; Finish, finito, a gone coon, never to be seen or remembered again. Isaiah 65:17

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Thank you for your well thought out and carefully constructed views. They are deeply appreciated.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

Think what you want but you're the one who continues to take scriptures out of context to prove what you believe and you completely ignore certain scriptures that tell you black and white you must die to be changed to a powerful spiritual being rewarded with immortality and inheriting incorruption, those who will be Kings, Priests and Judges with Jesus in that heavenly kingdom ruling over the Earth.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Think what you want but you're the one who continues to take scriptures out of context to prove what you believe and you completely ignore certain scriptures that tell you black and white you must die to be changed to a powerful spiritual being rewarded with immortality and inheriting incorruption, those who will be Kings, Priests and Judges with Jesus in that heavenly kingdom ruling over the Earth.

You're correct. You serve your master [your "church"] well. And you will be rewarded.*

Just believe what they say, and do what they say!

* quote from Luke Skywalker, "Return of the Jedi", 1983​

Bobby Jo

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Agreed:

Rev. 20:4 ... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

And being that the DEAD must be raised PRIOR to any "rapture", -- and the "rapture" did not happen when Jesus died, even though many DEAD were raised from their graves --, we can consider a Tribulation timeline which specifically EXCLUDES the DEAD being raised. So now we're left at the end of the Millennial Kingdom where the DEAD ARE RAISED and those who are alive and remain can be "raptured".

Or so Scripture and logic would dictate. But Scripture and logic are no match for CHURCH DOCTRINE. And I place CHURCH DOCTRINE above Scripture just like YOU!

Bobby Jo

I believe the righteous will have two stages of a resurrection of the dead. First the righteous who will be in heaven with Jesus in that heavenly kingdom. Those who will be kings Judges and Priests ruling with Jesus. Then after Armageddon those humans who have been judged righteous will be resurrected as flesh and blood humans being resurrected back on Earth. Then the unrighteous who will be resurrected back on Earth to a resurrection of judgement. Those who are righteous and resurrected into heaven basically come to life immediately since they're resurrected as immortal spiritual beings inheriting incorruption. The righteous and unrighteous resurrected on Earth do not come to life until the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus, those humans on Earth at the end of the thousand year reign no longer have sin ruling in them and therefore no longer die from Adamic death such as from old age or whatever because now all the humans are like Adam before he sinned and are without spot or blemish. They are sinless humans perfect humans like Adam before he sinned.

 

[Copperhead]

The Scriptural support for death after being brought back to life and after rotting in the grave, is Lazarus,

Except Lazarus was never called a saint. I am not sure it is sound exegesis to equate Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, or any other singular individual that was raised, with the resurrection of a group specifically referred to as saints shortly after Yeshua's resurrection. It can be done, but without something to link the group with a few resurrected folks who were not called saints, it still falls in speculation territory.

And, again, many of the early church folks who either knew the Apostles or were in close association with those who did, they seemed to believe these specific saints of Matthew 27 were taken to the Father. So for any of us, 19-20 centuries later, to be categorical in our position that they weren't taken to the Father, it would take some very serious scripture support that specifically addresses and counters that view. And it is not there.

 

[Copperhead]

immortality is given to those who have proved worthy.

How are they proved worthy? What is the set of criteria?