Rapture Day (Catching up of Believers) is very Near!!

[Bobby Jo]

Per @Copperhead:

Bobby Jo said

immortality is given to those who have proved worthy.​

How are they proved worthy? What is the set of criteria?

I quoted @Keraz to contend with his assertion. You've mistakenly attributed his quote to me.


My actual Post excerpt:

Keraz said: ↑
Yes; we Christians are Promised Eternal life. John 3:16
But we still die and it is only at the Great White Throne Judgment, that all the people who have ever lived will stand before God and immortality is given to those who have proved worthy.​

... and my reply:

Ummmmmmm, we are already created with immortal spirits. And that "worm" dieth not.​

Please address your question to @Keraz!

Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

Per @Copperhead:

Bobby Jo said

immortality is given to those who have proved worthy.​

​

I quoted @Keraz to contend with his assertion. You've mistakenly attributed his quote to me.


My actual Post excerpt:

Keraz said: ↑
Yes; we Christians are Promised Eternal life. John 3:16
But we still die and it is only at the Great White Throne Judgment, that all the people who have ever lived will stand before God and immortality is given to those who have proved worthy.​

... and my reply:

Ummmmmmm, we are already created with immortal spirits. And that "worm" dieth not.​

Please address your question to @Keraz!

Bobby Jo

Oops.. my bad!

 

[Keraz]

Except Lazarus was never called a saint. I am not sure it is sound exegesis to equate Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, or any other singular individual that was raised, with the resurrection of a group specifically referred to as saints shortly after Yeshua's resurrection. It can be done, but without something to link the group with a few resurrected folks who were not called saints, it still falls in speculation territory.

And, again, many of the early church folks who either knew the Apostles or were in close association with those who did, they seemed to believe these specific saints of Matthew 27 were taken to the Father. So for any of us, 19-20 centuries later, to be categorical in our position that they weren't taken to the Father, it would take some very serious scripture support that specifically addresses and counters that view. And it is not there.

What is just never stated in scripture, is the modern Church being taken to heaven.
As for all the others; Lazarus, the OT saints, etc, it isn't told to us where they go after death, but there is really no reason to believe they will be any different from every dead person; who know nothing. Eccl 9:5-6, Job 14:10-12

It is you who operates in speculation territory. You provide scripture to prove your case.
David and Daniel were OT saints, if anyone: they should have risen with Jesus, his 'seed'. But Acts 13:36 says: David sleeps and saw corruption, then Daniel 12:13 says: Daniel will 'sleep' until the last day. Which will be at the end of the Millennium.
Only Moses and Elijah seem to have a spiritual role to play before then.

 

[Copperhead]

The big problem I see with that idea is that Yeshua and the redeemed Body of Messiah will rule over the nations with a rod of iron. That implies being harsh and quenching wrongdoing quickly.

Now, some of you guys are talking about we all have nothing to do with a resurrection or eternal life till after the 1000 years. Well, it seems from what I read that the 1000 years will be characterized by sin that is still present in the kingdom, people will be born, people will die, those that don't toe the line will have rain withheld from their land and such. Things will finally escalate to the point that when Satan is released, he is able to foment almost a world wide rebellion against Yeshua. People once again, even with a planet restored to almost another Garden of Eden state, will want to throw off the rule of God. It seems that 1000 years will require ruling with a rod of iron.

So, did Yeshua just pull our chain when He said that those of the church who overcome will rule with a rod of iron along side Him? And if the removal of the righteous being changed and caught up to meet the Lord only happens at his literal, physical return to the earth, who are the righteous that are still on the earth and remain mortal to go into the kingdom to repopulate it and produce the offspring that some will eventually rebel against Yeshua per the scripture?

I don't see any evidence in scripture that after the new earth and new Jerusalem are brought forth, that there will be conditions that warrant Yeshua ruling with a "rod of iron" like a authoritarian despot. So it seems that is only applicable to the 1000 year reign.

And that there speaks volumes. If it is so perfect, then why does it only last 1000 years? It isn't perfect and sin will still be present from those who survived the tribulation period went into the kingdom as mortals. They are the righteous of the nations that are judged so at His return. They will have children and some of those may not be so righteous.

 

[Davy]

The big problem I see with that idea is that Yeshua and the redeemed Body of Messiah will rule over the nations with a rod of iron. That implies being harsh and quenching wrongdoing quickly.

Now, some of you guys are talking about we all have nothing to do with a resurrection or eternal life till after the 1000 years. Well, it seems from what I read that the 1000 years will be characterized by sin that is still present in the kingdom, people will be born, people will die, those that don't toe the line will have rain withheld from their land and such. Things will finally escalate to the point that when Satan is released, he is able to foment almost a world wide rebellion against Yeshua. People once again, even with a planet restored to almost another Garden of Eden state, will want to throw off the rule of God. It seems that 1000 years will require ruling with a rod of iron.

So, did Yeshua just pull our chain when He said that those of the church who overcome will rule with a rod of iron along side Him? And if the removal of the righteous being changed and caught up to meet the Lord only happens at his literal, physical return to the earth, who are the righteous that are still on the earth and remain mortal to go into the kingdom to repopulate it and produce the offspring that some will eventually rebel against Yeshua per the scripture?

I don't see any evidence in scripture that after the new earth and new Jerusalem are brought forth, that there will be conditions that warrant Yeshua ruling with a "rod of iron" like a authoritarian despot. So it seems that is only applicable to the 1000 year reign.

And that there speaks volumes. If it is so perfect, then why does it only last 1000 years? It isn't perfect and sin will still be present from those who survived the tribulation period went into the kingdom as mortals. They are the righteous of the nations that are judged so at His return. They will have children and some of those may not be so righteous.

A major problem with your thinking is this...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

If the wicked dead are raised to the "resurrection of damnation" on the day of Christ's 2nd coming, like Jesus said there, then how is it you preach a fleshy world after Christ's return?? Those who sleep in Jesus are not the only ones raised from the dead on the day of His 2nd coming.

Apostle Paul also showed the resurrection happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming per 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, but you pre-trib rapture folks refuse to recognize that resurrection as being only on the last day of this world.

 

[Keraz]

if the removal of the righteous being changed and caught up to meet the Lord only happens at his literal, physical return to the earth, who are the righteous that are still on the earth and remain mortal to go into the kingdom to repopulate it and produce the offspring that some will eventually rebel against Yeshua per the scripture?

This is where you go off the rails.
There is no 'change' of our physical bodies at the Return. That can only happen when the Book of Life is opened, AFTER the Millennium. Paul's prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is all about that time. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4
The Millennium period will be a very pleasant time, as people will want to be good subjects of King Jesus.
But near the end, Satan will be released, Revelation 20:7-10. This will be the final decider between good and evil.

 

[Keraz]

If the wicked dead are raised to the "resurrection of damnation" on the day of Christ's 2nd coming, like Jesus said there, then how is it you preach a fleshy world after Christ's return?? Those who sleep in Jesus are not the only ones raised from the dead on the day of His 2nd coming.

Apostle Paul also showed the resurrection happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming per 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, but you pre-trib rapture folks refuse to recognize that resurrection as being only on the last day of this world.

Just read Revelation 20:4.
Couldn't be clearer; ONLY the Trib martyrs are raised at the Return. Just brought back to life, NOT to immortality as yet.

The 1 Thess 4:17, prophecy, describes a gathering, a horizontal transportation to where Jesus is. Which will be in the new Temple in Jerusalem. Isaiah 65:19-25 is one of the few descriptions we have of the Millennium period. Life on earth will go on normally, but without the Satanic influence that is such a problem today.

 

[Copperhead]

This is where you go off the rails.
There is no 'change' of our physical bodies at the Return. That can only happen when the Book of Life is opened, AFTER the Millennium. Paul's prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is all about that time. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4
The Millennium period will be a very pleasant time, as people will want to be good subjects of King Jesus.
But near the end, Satan will be released, Revelation 20:7-10. This will be the final decider between good and evil.

You will grab a verse here and there the are not directly linked to the idea you are trying to explain. There is nothing in 1 Corinthians 15 that directly ties it to the end of the 1000 years. You have done that, but the passage doesn't show that link.

It does show the period most likely referred to.... the last trumpet. Now if you had done your homework on what the various trumpets... first trump, last trump, great trump.... referred to in scripture, you would know that none of them have anything to do with the period at the end of the 1000 years. Actually, they are all premillennial. And each refers to specific events before the millennial kingdom starts.

Hint.....the first trump has already occurred. If you can figure when the Great trump occurs, you should be able to figure out when the last trump occurs. And no.... the last trump does not mean the "last" in a series. Actually the Great trump is the literal final trump.

 

[Copperhead]

The 1 Thess 4:17, prophecy, describes a gathering, a horizontal transportation to where Jesus is. Which will be in the new Temple in Jerusalem. Isaiah 65:19-25 is one of the few descriptions we have of the Millennium period. Life on earth will go on normally, but without the Satanic influence that is such a problem today.

That passage in 1 Thessalonians 4 has nothing to do with a horizontal "caught up". If we are going to let the text speak for itself, it can only mean "up", not sideways.

You are using a circular argument from a faulty presupposition.

 

[Keraz]

There is nothing in 1 Corinthians 15 that directly ties it to the end of the 1000 years. You have done that, but the passage doesn't show that link.

Yes I did, both 1 Cor 15:55 and Rev 20:4 say that when what is described in their context happens; THEN: Death will be no more.

Your convoluted argument about the Last Trumpet is totally without scriptural support or logical reasoning.
Are trumpets to be banned during the Millennium? No; the actual Last Trump will be at the end of the Millennium, to call up everyone who has ever lived; to stand in Judgment before God. Revelation 20:11-15

That passage in 1 Thessalonians 4 has nothing to do with a horizontal "caught up". If we are going to let the text speak for itself, it can only mean "up", not sideways.

You are using a circular argument from a faulty presupposition.

Of course you, having the childish notion of Heaven being in the sky, think 'up' means going to heaven, But Jesus has just come from there and He is Returning to the earth, as He said He would. Acts 1:11
For we Christians living under the beneficial reign of King Jesus, it will be like heaven; on earth.

Cliff, I and many others on the forums, have presented the Biblical truths to you.
That you still grip onto the false teaching of a rapture removal, despite it never being prophesied and many scriptures proveing such a thing is impossible, is very unfortunate and may affect your future status.
Remember that Jesus said He would be with us [spiritually] until the end of the age. Matthew 28:20 THEN He will come again Revelation 1:7.

 

[Copperhead]

Yes I did, both 1 Cor 15:55 and Rev 20:4 say that when what is described in their context happens; THEN: Death will be no more.

No, it says in 1 Corinthians 15 that death will be swallowed up in victory for the redeemed. We will exchange corruption for incorruption. It doesn't say that death is no more. You are still using a circular reasoning methodology to associate it with Revelation 20:4.

What your reasoning fails to take into account, is that at the end of the 1000 years, a major rebellion is created by Satan, talked about later in Revelation 20. One last major coup to overthrow Messiah. It will fail. But what of those who rebel with Satan? Some will die in that episode. So death is not ended at Revelation 20:4. The mortals that went into the kingdom at the start of the 1000 years have children, who also have children, and many will not place their trust in Messiah. The prophets talk about people still dying during the Messianic kingdom and some rebelling against Yeshua's rule over them.

 

[Copperhead]

Your convoluted argument about the Last Trumpet is totally without scriptural support or logical reasoning.

To those that have not studied about it and understand it. It only seems convoluted.

 

[Copperhead]

Are trumpets to be banned during the Millennium? No; the actual Last Trump will be at the end of the Millennium, to call up everyone who has ever lived; to stand in Judgment before God. Revelation 20:11-15

No trumpet mentioned in that passage. You are applying your idea of what the last trump is to that passage and there is no connection. There is not a trumpet even mentioned or alluded to in the entire chapter.

 

[Copperhead]

Of course you, having the childish notion of Heaven being in the sky, think 'up' means going to heaven,

You just can't help yourself can you? When the discussion is not going how you like it, you feel the need to demean others. You really need to get a handle on that. It is not in keeping with the gifts of the Spirit.

 

[Copperhead]

Cliff, I and many others on the forums, have presented the Biblical truths to you.
That you still grip onto the false teaching of a rapture removal, despite it never being prophesied and many scriptures proveing such a thing is impossible, is very unfortunate and may affect your future status.

And now we finally get down to the nitty gritty. Affect my future status. My future status is only thru Messiah. I am redeemed.... bought and paid for. My status is in the Lord. I have already passed from death to life. You seem to imply that eschatology is a condition of salvation. That concept is another Gospel.

And that I prefer to adhere to a teaching that the anti-nicene church writers held (you know, the guys who actually knew the Apostles or were closely associated with those that did), I really don't mind that some folks many centuries later think I am childish or deluded. I am in pretty good company. Many of the Hebrew writings of those prior to the church even starting support those anti-nicene writers and myself. Concepts like yours crept in starting about the 4th century and persist. It has its basis in Gnosticism. I am pretty sure that is what Paul was talking about.

 

[Davy]

Just read Revelation 20:4.
Couldn't be clearer; ONLY the Trib martyrs are raised at the Return. Just brought back to life, NOT to immortality as yet.

The 1 Thess 4:17, prophecy, describes a gathering, a horizontal transportation to where Jesus is. Which will be in the new Temple in Jerusalem. Isaiah 65:19-25 is one of the few descriptions we have of the Millennium period. Life on earth will go on normally, but without the Satanic influence that is such a problem today.

No such idea there, you have to keep reading...

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

Rev 1:5-6
5 And from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him That loved us, and washed us from our sins in His Own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
KJV

One has to keep in mind what Apostles Paul and Peter taught about the events to occur on "the day of the Lord", with God's consuming fire burning the elements off the surface of this earth, and those on earth being changed at the twinkling of an eye.

All alive on earth will put off their flesh bodies on that day. Christ's Millennium reign will not be one in flesh bodies. There won't be some walking around in a "spiritual body" while others are still in a flesh body. The wicked dead are resurrected on that day also just as Jesus said in John 5:28-29. That would mean the wicked dead would be walking around in spiritual bodies too while the wicked on the day of Christ's return are still in flesh bodies. That's the result of your thinking, and also anyone who doesn't understand this flesh world is over when Jesus appears on the "day of the Lord".

 

[Keraz]

No, it says in 1 Corinthians 15 that death will be swallowed up in victory for the redeemed. We will exchange corruption for incorruption. It doesn't say that death is no more. You are still using a circular reasoning methodology to associate it with Revelation 20:4.

What your reasoning fails to take into account, is that at the end of the 1000 years, a major rebellion is created by Satan, talked about later in Revelation 20. One last major coup to overthrow Messiah. It will fail. But what of those who rebel with Satan? Some will die in that episode. So death is not ended at Revelation 20:4. The mortals that went into the kingdom at the start of the 1000 years have children, who also have children, and many will not place their trust in Messiah. The prophets talk about people still dying during the Messianic kingdom and some rebelling against Yeshua's rule over them.

I agree with your second paragraph. That is what will happen.

But your contention that Death swallowed up in victory, doesn't mean there is no more death; is plainly wrong.
Pauls prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56, must refer to after the GWT Judgment, when immortality will be given to those whose names are Written in the Book of Life.

To those that have not studied about it and understand it. It only seems convoluted.

The Last Trumpet has nothing to do with the Seven Trumpet judgements of the Great Tribulation. It is obvious to anyone that the Last and final trumpet blast on the present earth, will sound to raise all the dead, to stand before God on His Throne.

And now we finally get down to the nitty gritty. Affect my future status. My future status is only thru Messiah. I am redeemed.... bought and paid for. My status is in the Lord. I have already passed from death to life.

I do not question your salvation.
What I point out is when Jesus Returns, He will bring our rewards with Him, Matthew 16:27 Those who have gripped onto and promoted false doctrines may experience some loss if their works fail the test.

 

[Keraz]

One has to keep in mind what Apostles Paul and Peter taught about the events to occur on "the day of the Lord", with God's consuming fire burning the elements off the surface of this earth, and those on earth being changed at the twinkling of an eye.

All alive on earth will put off their flesh bodies on that day. Christ's Millennium reign will not be one in flesh bodies. There won't be some walking around in a "spiritual body" while others are still in a flesh body. The wicked dead are resurrected on that day also just as Jesus said in John 5:28-29. That would mean the wicked dead would be walking around in spiritual bodies too while the wicked on the day of Christ's return are still in flesh bodies. That's the result of your thinking, and also anyone who doesn't understand this flesh world is over when Jesus appears on the "day of the Lord".

All wrong and unscriptural, your conclusions are in error.
John 5:28-29 is about the GWT Judgment, proved in Revelation 20:1-15.

The Day of Jesus Return is not a day of fire at all. He merely disposes of Satans attacking armies by the Sword of His Word.
Isaiah 65:20 says people will still die during the Millennium, no one receives immortality until the 1000 years is over.

 

[Copperhead]

I do not question your salvation.
What I point out is when Jesus Returns, He will bring our rewards with Him, Matthew 16:27 Those who have gripped onto and promoted false doctrines may experience some loss if their works fail the test.

You might want to take that to heart. Most all of what you have posted is counter to the anti-nicene church writers.

Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, 160AD)....

For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth] and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians…But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

Continuing on.....

And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.

JM is pretty hard core there. He is basically saying that those who deny the resurrection of the saints and their being in the millennial kingdom are blasphemers. And he further amplifies that while there is a resurrection of the righteous before the 1000 years, the general resurrection of all men would happen at the end of the 1000 and they will be judged. Just as scripture points out.

Irenaeus in "Against Heresies", circa 180 AD.....

"John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first 'resurrection of the just,' and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth," he says, "and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]."

Again, Irenaeus declares,

"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom."

Tertullian, roughly the same time as Irenaeus, "Against Marcion"......

"But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection, for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'letdown from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicts of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld."

And there is quite an extensive list of anti-nicene church writers who held a premillennial view. So much so that it was considered the norm and therefore not included in many creeds. Creeds tend to counter false theology. If premillennial thought had been considered false theology, we would see that in various creedal statements from the first two centuries.

Amillenialism and Postmillenialism really took off with Augustine's "The City of God", 5th Century, which is the basis of that ideology. It formed the core eschatology of the RCC.

So, do I listen to what a group of guys who were pretty close to the Apostles or students of them had to say, or a N. African who was influenced by the Alexandrian school and Origen which brought a allegorical hermeneutics to the forefront. The other guys were influenced by the Antioch school, of which there is clear apostolic connection, since Paul initiated his ministry journeys from there. The Antioch school focused more on a literal interpretation of the scripture. The Alexandrian school has no apostolic connection, and there is ample evidence of a heretical Gnostic influence on it that led to a allegorical interpretation methodology.

No brainer. I will stick with the anti-nicene writers chiliasm (premillennialism).

 

[Keraz]

You might want to take that to heart. Most all of what you have posted is counter to the anti-nicene church writers.

I took the Prophetic Word to heart long ago. The Bible is my guide.

I have read most of the Early Church Fathers. They make some good comments, but like all the Commentaries, they were liable to error. It is a mistake to take anyone's opinions and beliefs as gospel.
Trust what the Bible prophets tell us, the scriptures that I point out in my posts and articles.

You have completely failed to address my post #157.
It is quite contrary to scripture for people to become immortal before the GWT Judgment. As well as illogical and sort of crazy.