Rapture Day (Catching up of Believers) is very Near!!

[n2thelight]

Focus on the words..... "them" "they". It is referring to those who are not believers. it has nothing to do with believers.

To impose that passage on the church to support a defection from the truth idea is not within the context of the passage. it is speaking of those outside the body. It has its focus on those who are perishing already.....

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NKJV) and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Again, context, context, context.

And eschatology is not the truth that saves. Only the truth of who the Messiah is and placing ones trust in Him is what saves. How one categorizes the events of the end times is not a condition of justification / salvation.

Again, Paul never raises or discusses a defection from the truth, a revolt from the truth, a rebellion from the truth, or a falling away by believers in both letters to the Thessalonians.

I'm focused ,only those in Christ can fall away from Him,therefore it can't and is not talking about non believers.They already lost!!!!

 

[Copperhead]

If you read 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-17 you'll see a Rapture isn't being discussed,

You make a valid point about a resurrection with an interesting tie in to those redeemed who are alive, but not that a rapture is not being discussed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV Strong's) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

"caught up" is the Greek "harpazo" which describes a catching away, snatching away by force, etc. In the Latin Vulgate, the word "rapiemur" is used (you can see this online at latinvulgate.com), from which we get our English word "rapture". So early on in church history, many must has seen "rapture" being discussed. So much so that the first major translation of the Greek NT that was the mainstay Bible for 1000 years mentions rapture.

 

[Copperhead]

You have disingenuously altered that]]

I do not 'blatantly and maliciously' attack you,

Yes you did. You said that I "disingenuously altered that". That was a lie and a defamation. Now from what I see from common law and the scripture, is that to bring false charges against another is an unwarranted attack and a violation of the 9th commandment. That is blatant and malicious.

Your comments don't exhibit some idea of "caring" about the me in regards to the position I adhere to. They more closely exhibit a pride that you are right and everyone else is wrong. It's my way or the highway stuff like "you and many 'wise' people" comments that are clearly meant to demean. All I have ever done is show comments and analysis from others who have done the heavy lifting and done the in depth study as well as my analysis and understanding of the texts.

2 Peter 1:20 (NKJV) knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

At least I study and lean on the analysis done by others that are experts in their field of study. Folks like Dr. Kenneth Wuest, one of the premier Greek Scholars of the 20th Century, chair of NT Greek at Moody Bible Institute for several decades, and contributor to the NASB translation. Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary. Dr. Ed Hinson, Dean Emeritus at Liberty University. Dr. Ken Johnson, a very humble and quiet guy whose expertise in the ancient manuscripts is well known in the theology community and has done a great service to the Christian community by unveiling and translating many Qumran scrolls that were kept from the public for many years.

 

[Keraz]

Yes you did. You said that I "disingenuously altered that". That was a lie and a defamation. Now from what I see from common law and the scripture, is that to bring false charges against another is an unwarranted attack and a violation of the 9th commandment. That is blatant and malicious.

Your comments don't exhibit some idea of "caring" about the me in regards to the position I adhere to. They more closely exhibit a pride that you are right and everyone else is wrong. It's my way or the highway stuff like "you and many 'wise' people" comments that are clearly meant to demean. All I have ever done is show comments and analysis from others who have done the heavy lifting and done the in depth study as well as my analysis and understanding of the texts.

2 Peter 1:20 (NKJV) knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

At least I study and lean on the analysis done by others that are experts in their field of study. Folks like Dr. Kenneth Wuest, one of the premier Greek Scholars of the 20th Century, chair of NT Greek at Moody Bible Institute for several decades, and contributor to the NASB translation. Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary. Dr. Ed Hinson, Dean Emeritus at Liberty University. Dr. Ken Johnson, a very humble and quiet guy whose expertise in the ancient manuscripts is well known in the theology community and has done a great service to the Christian community by unveiling and translating many Qumran scrolls that were kept from the public for many years.

In your post #67, you quoted the first word of John 17:21 as: that they all may be one.....
My copy of the KJV says: That they all may be as one. ….. The 'That', capitalized.
I do see the NKJV has it correctly, with just a comma between verse 20 and 21.

My point is; Jesus does NOT make a distinction between the disciples and every Christian. John 17:20 ….I pray for all who put their faith in ME.....irrefutably proves that Jesus prayer to God, that He NOT take His Christian followers; disciples or us, out of the world, but give all of them protection from the evil one.

Trust the 'experts'? Can't you read what the Bible says about them? Matthew 11:25, Isaiah 8:15, 1 Corinthians 3:18-20
1 John 2:27 ...you need no other teacher..... Than Jesus and the Prophets.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

You make a valid point about a resurrection with an interesting tie in to those redeemed who are alive, but not that a rapture is not being discussed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV Strong's) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

"caught up" is the Greek "harpazo" which describes a catching away, snatching away by force, etc. In the Latin Vulgate, the word "rapiemur" is used (you can see this online at latinvulgate.com), from which we get our English word "rapture". So early on in church history, many must has seen "rapture" being discussed. So much so that the first major translation of the Greek NT that was the mainstay Bible for 1000 years mentions rapture.

I understand Christians who will be with Jesus in heaven must die before receiving their reward. (1 Corinthians 15:35 -54)

 

[Bobby Jo]

I understand Christians who will be with Jesus in heaven must die before receiving their reward. ...

Yeah, my wife tells that to me too, right before she says: If you don't knock it off.


But if I survive until the end of the Millennial Kingdom, I will be taken up ALIVE, -- if I can live that long.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

 

[Truth]

Yeah, my wife tells that to me too, right before she says: If you don't knock it off.


But if I survive until the end of the Millennial Kingdom, I will be taken up ALIVE, -- if I can live that long.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

People really need to read what our Savior said!!!!!! Matthew 24 1-51!!!!!
the Rapture is a Scandilizo _ A Snare, Let not yourselves be deceived by False Prophet's [ Teachers, Preachers, Leader's, and as you say Hirelings! For they make Market of you, coming in his name But without shame use soothing words to entice you to believe in that which is false! Read!!!

 

[Bobby Jo]

People really need to read what our Savior said!!!!!! Matthew 24 1-51!!!!!
the Rapture is a Scandilizo _ A Snare, Let not yourselves be deceived by False Prophet's [ Teachers, Preachers, Leader's, and as you say Hirelings! For they make Market of you, coming in his name But without shame use soothing words to entice you to believe in that which is false! Read!!!

Have read. Have understood.

We will have a "rapture" after the dead are raised:

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, ...
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them​

... and then those who are alive and remain shall ascend to be with the LORD forever in the air (the New Jerusalem).

1 Thess. 4:16 ... And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. ​

After all, how will the survivors of the final attack against Jesus get to the New Jerusalem except by rapture? -- Springs on the bottoms of shoes? Trampolines? Pogo Sticks?

Pretty simple, -- not church doctrine, which is FALSE --, but is Scriptural.
Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

Problem is, there is even discussion of a removal of the righteous before the final calamities that come upon the earth.... in the Book of Enoch, part of the Qumran scrolls, circa 150-100 BC. Many wonder why a pre-tribulation would happen, as if it is some hopeful escapism. Well Enoch addresses the reason why.....

"In those days a change will take place for the Holy and Elect, and the light of days will abide upon them and glory and honor will turn to the Holy. On that day of tribulation on which evil will gather against the sinners, the righteous will overcome in the name of the Lord of Spirits. He will cause the others to witness it that they may repent and cease the work of their hands. (Ancient Book of Enoch 50:1-2)

From Enoch, the main reason for the gathering of the righteous is to cause folks to realize that what was told them was true and that this disappearance of many would cause them to repent. Just like the Lord uses major signs to warn others, this will be one of them.

It is interesting that in the Book of Enoch, it states that it should not be part of the cannon of scripture, as it was reserved for those that go thru the tribulation period that covers the entire earth. However, it is the most oft quoted non canonical book in the scripture.

The Ezra Apocalypse was oft quoted by many church writers of the first 2 centuries.

"For behold the days to come, when the signs that I have foretold come to pass, the bride will be revealed, and what has now been withdrawn from the earth will be brought back. Whoever is delivered from these predicted evils, will see My wonders. For My Son the Messiah , will be revealed together with those who remain, and will rejoice with those who remain one thousand years." (Ancient Apocalypse of Ezra 7:26-28)

Irenaeus, student of Polycarp who was a student of the Apostle John, and occasionally saw and talked with John. In his treatise attacking the heresies and cults of his day.....

"When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, then it is said, 'There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be'" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:29)

Hippolytus, a student of Irenaeus, uses the same text from Isaiah 26 that I have used that some say does not apply to the removal of the righteous. Well, let's see what he has to say....

"By the heat he means a conflagration. And Isaiah speaks thus: 'Come my people, enter thou into they chamber, and shut the door: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation of the Lord be overeats.' And Paul in like manner: 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and of men, who hold the truth of God in unrighteousness.'" (Hippolytus, On The Antichrist, 64b)

Victorinus wrote a commentary on Revelation around 240AD. He equates one who hinders and is taken out of the way of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 to the church....

"And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angles having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the wrath of God. [Revelation 15:1] And these shall be the last time, when the Church shall have gone 'out of the midst'" (Commentary on the Apocalypse 15.1 - Victorinus AD 240)

"out of the midst" in the literal translation of the Greek of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 where "it (He) is taken out of the way". The literal translation would be "come out of the midst". This phrase is also shown in the Book of Enoch regarding the end of days. Ezekiel and Jeremiah use this phrase also...

Jeremiah 51:45 (KJV) My people, go ye out of the midst of her,
and deliver ye every man his soul
from the fierce anger of the Lord.

 

[Copperhead]

Trust the 'experts'? Can't you read what the Bible says about them? Matthew 11:25, Isaiah 8:15, 1 Corinthians 3:18-20
1 John 2:27 ...you need no other teacher..... Than Jesus and the Prophets.

[Removed]

 

[Bobby Jo]

Problem is, ...

Yep, the problem is: When are the DEAD raised? -- After the thousand years are ended?

Another problem is HIRELINGS using the "rapture" as a whip to keep people coming to church and paying tithes FOR THEIR CONTINUED (and in many cases -- SUBSTANTIAL) INCOME. -- Jesus could come at any moment (FALSE) and if you're not RIGHT WITH GOD (FALSE) you will be LEFT BEHIND (FALSE).

But for those who have not PREPARED, using their PURSE and BAG, and able to protect themselves with a SWORD, -- they will be PRIME CANDIDATES for the Great Falling Away, -- similar to the situation which confronted Peter in the Courtyard.

Luke 22:35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.​

But as I understand: The SHOWERS are FREE!
Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

Yep. Just a hatchet job on others with no substantive rebuttal to what is posted. Sign of the times.

Some early church writers said that the apostasy will be characterized by attacks on Christians by other Christians and it will escalate to even a point of causing death. I guess we might be seeing the beginnings of that now.

 

[Copperhead]

Yep, the problem is: When are the DEAD raised? -- After the thousand years are ended?

According to Isaiah, the righteous dead before the indignation, or tribulation period. It is prefaced in the same passage that it will be at the start of the birth pains. Jeremiah says those birth pains are the "time of Jacob's trouble" which is a recognized reference to the tribulation period since Jere also says that day is great and there will be no day like it and Yeshua said that it will be great tribulation that nothing preceding it or following it will be as great.

Many early church writers and even some of the Qumran scrolls (circa 150-100 BC) also say similar.

And there are multiple resurrections of the dead in scripture. It is not a one size fits all event.

 

[hermeneutics]

Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

The last day would be the day Jesus died on the cross.

A thief who was on another cross asked Jesus to remember him.

Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Here it speaks of the last day, and the thief would rise on that last day.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

A believer will live forever.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

As we can see from the above, Jesus told Martha that her brother would rise again on the last day, which would be true of all the children of Israel that had passed away.

Jesus also said the those that believe will never die, that means from then on no believer will have to wait after the natural death before they go on to be with the Lord.

Rapture is happening every day!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yeah, my wife tells that to me too, right before she says: If you don't knock it off.


But if I survive until the end of the Millennial Kingdom, I will be taken up ALIVE, -- if I can live that long.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

No, I don't think you're better than Jesus. He had to sacrifice his human life so those who will be in heaven with Jesus and be Kings, Judges and Priests with him in that heavenly kingdom ruling over the Earth must also sacrifice their human lives getting a resurrection like him rewarded with immortality and inheriting incorruption.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... there are multiple resurrections of the dead in scripture. It is not a one size fits all event.

Agreed:

Rev. 20:4 ... I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

And being that the DEAD must be raised PRIOR to any "rapture", -- and the "rapture" did not happen when Jesus died, even though many DEAD were raised from their graves --, we can consider a Tribulation timeline which specifically EXCLUDES the DEAD being raised. So now we're left at the end of the Millennial Kingdom where the DEAD ARE RAISED and those who are alive and remain can be "raptured".

Or so Scripture and logic would dictate. But Scripture and logic are no match for CHURCH DOCTRINE. And I place CHURCH DOCTRINE above Scripture just like YOU!

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

No, I don't think you're better than Jesus. ...

Thank you for your well thought out and carefully constructed views. They are deeply appreciated.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

 

[Copperhead]

and the "rapture" did not happen when Jesus died, even though many DEAD were raised from their graves

They did not rise from their graves when He died, they rose after His resurrection.

Matthew 27:52-53 (NKJV) and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

And whether they were "caught up" later the text doesn't elaborate, but many of the early church writers said they were. Some of who had direct contact with the Apostles at one point or another. Dr. Norman Geisler did an extensive treatise compiling many early church writers on the topic who claim these dead were later removed to God and His Throne.

The Early Fathers and the Resurrection of the Saints in Matthew 27 – NORMAN GEISLER

 

[Bobby Jo]

They did not rise from their graves when He died, ...

I think my point was not the concise chronology of those events, but rather, -- during the events when Jesus died, and people came out of their tombs, WAS THERE A RAPTURE?

AND during the Tribulation those who refused the MARK will be raised, BUT THE DEAD WILL NOT BE RAISED until the thousand years are ended.

Did you miss that, or did your Church DOCTRINE blind you? -- And let me say that we all believe LIES. We believed in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and maybe even the Easter Bunny; but when we grew up we started to think for ourselves. Or so we should, to avoid being lied to by the HIRELINGS.

Bobby Jo

 

[Keraz]

The last day would be the day Jesus died on the cross.

The Last Day will be the day of Judgment for everyone. Revelation 20:11-15
The dead 'sleep' until then.

Jesus also said the those that believe will never die, that means from then on no believer will have to wait after the natural death before they go on to be with the Lord.

This conflicts with Bible teachings. Eccl 9:5-6
Even Daniel 12:13; awaits the final Day for his reward.

Rapture is happening every day!

Sheer nonsense! Why can't people read and understand what the Bible really does teach?
The 'rapture to heaven' theory has been believed and gripped onto by millions of Christians. But it is a fable, just as Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Paul goes on to say: But you must keep your head whatever happens. Put up with hardships, work to spread the Gospel and discharge all the duties of your calling. 2 Timothy 4:5
Jesus said: Go out to all the nations and make them My disciples.....teach them all I have Commanded and I will be with you always until the end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20

Dreaming that you will be removed from any trials or hardship, is a serious mistake, a direct contradiction of scripture. 1 Peter 4:12, Hebrews 12:5-8......if you escape the trials and testing, in which all must partake; then you are not true children of God.