What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

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amadeus

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"the truth is, it depends"

did you hear the Romans marching up there too or was that just me lol
Yes, it does depend. For God it is an easy thing, Truth, but we, all of us, in a measure are like Pontius Pilate, asking, "What is truth"? Many here won't admit it or insist they have it all. I hope that some of them do, but it would surprise me to really discover that someone did.

When I got into this conversation with @Marymog I did not expect to change her mind, not did I expect to have mine changed, although I always try to be willing to hear something perhaps new and better when enter such a discussion/argument. Unfortunately, when the Romans are marching there are usually others marching in competition. Is this a parade where at the end the judges will say you are the best marchers or your uniforms are the best or... and so forth?

I did hope to present one thing obvious hopefully to everyone, which is that all of us at times come short of the glory of God. All of us really are fallible until we finally are not... and who has arrived to that point. Not me!
 
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bbyrd009

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Yes, it does depend. For God it is an easy thing, Truth, but we, all of us, in a measure are like Pontius Pilate, asking, "What is truth"? Many here won't admit it or insist they have it all. I hope that some of them do, but it would surprise me to really discover that someone did.

When I got into this conversation with @Marymog I did not expect to change her mind, not did I expect to have mine changed, although I always try to be willing to hear something perhaps new and better when enter such a discussion/argument. Unfortunately, when the Romans are marching there are usually others marching in competition. Is this a parade where at the end the judges will say you are the best marchers or your uniforms are the best or... and so forth?

I did hope to present one thing obvious hopefully to everyone, which is that all of us at times come short of the glory of God. All of us really are fallible until we finally are not... and who has arrived to that point. Not me!
yeh im good for minutes at a time maybe i guess lol
 
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brakelite

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I accept the Church that Jesus started which has the authority given to it by Jesus in Matthew 18:17-18 and is the pillar and foundation of truth....Just like Scripture says. You reject the teachings
How do you prove your church is the church Jesus gave His authority to... Oh, of course... Your church says so. Mmmm.
 
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Marymog

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Then why do you put something else in HIS throne?
I haven't put something else on His throne. o_Oo_Oo_O Your question is based on something that I never said or have done! It's like asking someone who never beat their spouse, when you gonna stop beating your spouse. ;)

You believe YOU can properly interpret Scripture and decide what one must do to be saved. I believe The Church does that.

So dodge ball......Do you want to at least TRY and answer my questions which are based on your theory?

Which man or woman do you trust to properly interpret His word and come to truth?

Scripture says that the house of God is the pillar of the truth. What is the house of God Jane Doe?

Patient Mary
 

Marymog

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Without regard what he did in Corinth his words in verse number 11 are: "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

The foundation is the same everywhere and had been even before he was a believer. He was not merely reciting his own history, but he was telling us what the foundation of the Church, the only foundation, was: Jesus Christ.
Hi,

What you are saying is clearly opposite of what Scripture says. Jesus is not the only foundation.

Scripture says that Jesus is the Church’s cornerstone, not its foundation. A cornerstone is only one piece of a foundation and this doesn’t exclude other pieces.

Scripture says the household of God is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.

Scripture says the city has twelve foundations and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I believe Scripture....not you.

Mary
 

Marymog

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You are making me tired. I have patiently tried to explain so that you would understand and so that others really interested would look a little closer to what God really wants. He doesn't want you or me or anyone else on this forum to win a debate. He wants us to love Him first before anything else.....
Hi Amadeus,

Sorry to make you make you tired. I will never tired of speaking the truth. I am only trying to follow Scripture and put away falsehood and speak the truth to my neighbors since we are members of one another (Ephesians 4:25). I want us all to be one. I am trying to accomplish this by showing you sound doctrine (1 Timothy 6:3, 2 Timothy 4:3) so that we together may fulfill Jesus prayer and that the world may believe that Jesus was sent by God (John 17:20-21). You on the other hand want me to believe what you THINK the Spirit has revealed to YOU even though by your own admittance you have been wrong sometimes and are still growing in your knowledge. I believe what The Church, the pillar and foundation of truth teaches.

As far as your "win a debate" statement I choose a statement from Scripture over your statement: For though I am free with respect to all, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I might win more of them.

I agree with you that He wants us to love Him first before anything else. But Scripture says A LOT more than that on what He wants us to do. That is only the start of what we are supposed to do and one is not mutually exclusive of the other.

Mary
 

Marymog

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All you have discovered is what I have never denied... that I also am a fallible man. Where my friend is your first love? If you say Jesus but mean only the Catholic Church or any other church of men consider, as Haggai preached it, your ways!

"And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev 2:3-5
Thank you.

The Church that Christ built (Matthew 16:18) was led by the Apostles upon His death. ONE of those men of The Church Jesus gave a key to the kingdom of heaven and since you are OT literate you know what that means. To all those men he gave the power to bind on earth what will be bound in heaven. The Apostles then appointed men to succeed them and continue The Church, a church with authority, that Christ is the head of.

For one to belong to and adhere to the sound doctrines of The Church and to LOVE The Church that Christ built does not mean you don't love Jesus first. Loving one does not exclude loving the other.

YOU, Amadeus, seem to love your interpretations of Scripture and know that all others are sometimes wrong in their interpretation.....even though you admit to being fallible....but I digress. The Church is not fallible that is why I belong to it. Your church, by your own admittance, is fallible.

Mary
 

Marymog

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How do you prove your church is the church Jesus gave His authority to... Oh, of course... Your church says so. Mmmm.

You seem to KNOW that it is not the CC so you certainly must KNOW which Church it is?

Soooo which Church is it brakelite?
 

Marymog

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Agreed. The "Church" consists of ALL Christians, not a denomination. Are we ALL on the same path (Jesus) yes! Are we all at the same place on this narrow road? NO! God gives us understanding when He can trust us with it. Until then, we trust, trust, trust Him to give us understanding, as He sees fit. It is not possible that every single one of us are marching at the same place on that road. We strive to enter into His Truth and He reveals to us as He grows us. Christians come in all sizes and shapes and it is so arrogant to think that one denomination has ALL truth to the detriment of all the others. So much angst.
Hmmmm.....if The Church is ALL Christians then which one of the billions of Christians on this earth do we go to to fulfill Matthew 18:17?

Which Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Curious Mary
 

amadeus

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Hi,

What you are saying is clearly opposite of what Scripture says. Jesus is not the only foundation.

Scripture says that Jesus is the Church’s cornerstone, not its foundation. A cornerstone is only one piece of a foundation and this doesn’t exclude other pieces.

Scripture says the household of God is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.

Scripture says the city has twelve foundations and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I believe Scripture....not you.

Mary
As I have said I did not expect to change your mind here. I can tell by your responses that you are not understanding clearly what I wrote or simply have already made up your mind that I have nothing good.

Everyone, [yes even Catholics], does need a vision of God and the things of God even if it not as clear as crystal at this point. That vision needs to be improving! But you cannot hear me so then, Ask Him! You cannot go wrong with that!
 

Jane_Doe22

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I haven't put something else on His throne. o_Oo_Oo_O Your question is based on something that I never said or have done!

Quoting you, emphasis mine:


You believe YOU can properly interpret Scripture and decide what one must do to be saved. I believe The Church does that.
Nope, not true.

As stated previously it is The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, {the Catholic Church} that is the proper judge because it is the pillar and foundation of truth.
The Catholic Church is not God and the bolded is you putting something else in God's throne. I can pull up many other examples of you using these same lines.

God is the source of Truth. We are Christians: disciples of Christ. Christ is our Lord and Savior, loving and having a relationship with every single one of us and testifying with His Spirit. He is the perfect Almighty Son of God, and the Judge.

The Catholic Church is not God. We are not Catholicians. It is not the source of truth, not the Savior, not remotely perfect, and not the Almighty. It's not the Judge. And frankly that body of sinners (cause all men are sinners) doesn't remotely determine my salvation.

Do you understand that?

I know you're going to dig into the trenches claim that a person should just follow Catholicism and what the Catholic Church says scripture says, instead of asking Christ yourself and folllowing Him. Which will once again be you placing something else in Christ's throne and preaching that others do likewise.
 
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amadeus

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Hi Amadeus,

Sorry to make you make you tired. I will never tired of speaking the truth. I am only trying to follow Scripture and put away falsehood and speak the truth to my neighbors since we are members of one another (Ephesians 4:25). I want us all to be one. I am trying to accomplish this by showing you sound doctrine (1 Timothy 6:3, 2 Timothy 4:3) so that we together may fulfill Jesus prayer and that the world may believe that Jesus was sent by God (John 17:20-21). You on the other hand want me to believe what you THINK the Spirit has revealed to YOU even though by your own admittance you have been wrong sometimes and are still growing in your knowledge. I believe what The Church, the pillar and foundation of truth teaches.

As far as your "win a debate" statement I choose a statement from Scripture over your statement: For though I am free with respect to all, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I might win more of them.

I agree with you that He wants us to love Him first before anything else. But Scripture says A LOT more than that on what He wants us to do. That is only the start of what we are supposed to do and one is not mutually exclusive of the other.

Mary
It is the debate that tires this old flesh. When I meet someone where we are not constantly bumping heads I in the Spirit go on for hours.

OK then! Again may God richly bless you as you walk with Him!
 
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amadeus

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Thank you.
You are most certainly welcome!

[/quote]
The Church that Christ built (Matthew 16:18) was led by the Apostles upon His death. ONE of those men of The Church Jesus gave a key to the kingdom of heaven and since you are OT literate you know what that means. To all those men he gave the power to bind on earth what will be bound in heaven. The Apostles then appointed men to succeed them and continue The Church, a church with authority, that Christ is the head of.[/quote]
I won't get into this with you. I have heard all of the arguments from scripture on this issue of Peter and some people here certainly understand them better than I … and are willing to discuss/argue them with you.
For one to belong to and adhere to the sound doctrines of The Church and to LOVE The Church that Christ built does not mean you don't love Jesus first. Loving one does not exclude loving the other.
I understand and certainly agree with your final sentence.

YOU, Amadeus, seem to love your interpretations of Scripture and know that all others are sometimes wrong in their interpretation.....even though you admit to being fallible....but I digress. The Church is not fallible that is why I belong to it. Your church, by your own admittance, is fallible.

Mary
Love my interpretations? Rather I love the Interpreter, which is not me! I have never admitted that "my church" is fallible. I said that I am fallible and I am not by myself alone the Church. I don't believe in this conversation that I have mentioned a "my church". There is only One real Church of Jesus Christ and we do disagree on details concerning that Church... but I won't get into that again as at the moment I don't believe it would be edifying.

Give God the glory!
 

Marymog

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Love my interpretations? Rather I love the Interpreter, which is not me! I have never admitted that "my church" is fallible. I said that I am fallible and I am not by myself alone the Church. I don't believe in this conversation that I have mentioned a "my church". There is only One real Church of Jesus Christ and we do disagree on details concerning that Church... but I won't get into that again as at the moment I don't believe it would be edifying.

Give God the glory!
You are a confusing person Amadeus.....You say you are not the interpreter but you keep interpreting......Can you explain that to this simple minded girl?

You say you are fallible but you keep giving your interpretation of Scripture which, since you are fallible, COULD be wrong AND be leading people to a false teaching. You make it clear that the CC and other churches are wrong in their interpretations but you have never explained HOW you know they are wrong and you are right. HOW can a fallible man say that someone else is wrong in their interpretations? That makes zero sense to this old gal. Very confusing. :(

You say that every Christian is the church but you can't explain to me which one of the billions of Christians are the pillar and foundation of truth, which one we go to so we can settle our differences and which one has authority over all of us so that we may fulfill Jesus prayer to all be one with one (sound) doctrine.

You only quote Scripture that seems to support your theory but disregard scripture that destroys your theory......very concerning.

Concerned Mary

PS...I agree you have not mentioned your church....sooooo what church do you belong to?
 

Nancy

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Hmmmm.....if The Church is ALL Christians then which one of the billions of Christians on this earth do we go to to fulfill Matthew 18:17?

Which Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Curious Mary

"...which one of the billions of Christians on this earth do we go to to fulfill Matthew 18:17?"

Um, your local body?? There are Pastors, Priests, Deacons, Elders, on and on in every Church that I have ever been to, this is up to them to make that decision.

"Which Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?"

The "Church" is ALL Christians, it's not the denomination or a building, and all doctrine comes from scripture. My rock is Jesus, not Peter..the Living Word...
 
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amadeus

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You are a confusing person Amadeus.....You say you are not the interpreter but you keep interpreting......Can you explain that to this simple minded girl?

You say you are fallible but you keep giving your interpretation of Scripture which, since you are fallible, COULD be wrong AND be leading people to a false teaching. You make it clear that the CC and other churches are wrong in their interpretations but you have never explained HOW you know they are wrong and you are right. HOW can a fallible man say that someone else is wrong in their interpretations? That makes zero sense to this old gal. Very confusing. :(

You say that every Christian is the church but you can't explain to me which one of the billions of Christians are the pillar and foundation of truth, which one we go to so we can settle our differences and which one has authority over all of us so that we may fulfill Jesus prayer to all be one with one (sound) doctrine.

You only quote Scripture that seems to support your theory but disregard scripture that destroys your theory......very concerning.

Concerned Mary

PS...I agree you have not mentioned your church....sooooo what church do you belong to?
The only place any essential differences can really and finally settled is in God Himself. In the OT in several places it speaks of them not having a Comforter. On the other hand, if we see that Jesus is the 1st Comforter and Interpreter then can we also see that another Comforter was to be sent and did arrive as per Acts 2? To whom is He sent?

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:39

Is not the Comforter and Interpreter not God Himself?

As to disregarding scriptures, I do not. Sometimes when something is not understood I put it on the shelf. God may open it up to me later, but according to His will and according to His timing... not mine.

I have been reading, studying and praying for many years. I have always used the entirety of the Bible even when I understood almost nothing. I talk to God daily day and listen to Him. I also listen to many people who speak about the things of God as He may speak through them... Yes, this includes Catholics. Any interpretations I have from God are correct while those from me alone are wrong. When anyone quenches the Holy Spirit a mixed or erroneous message is the likely result. Both in the OT and NT it is confirmed that corroboration is needed. Jesus says:

"If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true." John 5:31-32


Probably you would deny my words if and when I might say that the one who beareth witness of me is the Holy Ghost in me. You would say that much of what was written was not written to me. What I say when I take hold of scriptural words and speak them, you would challenge the possibility that God wrote them on my heart or that the Holy Spirit quickened them in me. You say that I disregard scriptures. No, I read them all regularly, but only God brings them to Life in me.

The Church of which I am a part is His.
 
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brakelite

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You seem to KNOW that it is not the CC so you certainly must KNOW which Church it is?

Soooo which Church is it brakelite?
I have read all your posts to Amadeus. You have repeatedly told him that you are here to teach us that your church is the church that has been given authority. That authority you claim excludes all other churches, sects, individuals, denominations, movements, independent fellowships, everything except the Catholic church. This is, and has been your message to this forum for as long as I can remember. Not once since coming here have I, ever suggested any other single church has authority over another church... Over another individual... Or over anyone else who does not voluntarily join that church and submit to the church's authority over its own members. You on the other hand, and more specifically your church certainly, claims authority over the entire planet... Has done so for millennia, and has seen fit to exercise that authority through war, politics, crusades, assassinations, inquisitions, marital expediency, and in many other overt and covert practices through its priests and political agents in nearly every nation on earth.
So, I am not allowing you to twist the conversation around and make me the subject here... It is incumbent upon you to justify why you believe your particular church is the church Jesus has granted such authority as described above, and to prove this in light of history and scripture.
And I think I am fully justified in asking for this proof. For example, you also teach above that your church is not fallible... That the Pope, or his duly elected representatives, when speaking authoritatively...ex cathedra... He/they... The curia or official councils, speaks infallibly. Right?
You also teach that because "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against this did church, then there is no possibility of that church going into apostasy and turning against Christ.
Your comment regarding the following would be appreciated...

The Council of Toulouse, which met about the time of the crusade against the Albigenses, ruled: “We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament.... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.” “The Lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out.”—Concil.Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno.Chr. 1229. Canons 14 and 2. This Council sat at the time of the crusade against the Albigenses. GC 687.6
“This pest [the Bible] had taken such an extension that some people had appointed priests of their own, and even some evangelists who distorted and destroyed the truth of the gospel and made new gospels for their own purpose ... (They know that) the preaching and explanation of the Bible is absolutely forbidden to the lay members.”—Acts of Inquisition, Philip van Limborch, History of the Inquisition, chapter 8.GC 687.7
The Council of Tarragona, 1234, ruled that: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned lest, be he a cleric or a layman, he be suspected until he is cleared of all suspicion.”—D. Lortsch, Histoire de la Bible en France, 1910, p. 14. GC 688.1
At the Council of Constance, in 1415, Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury, as “that pestilent wretch of damnable heresy who invented a new translation of the Scriptures in his mother tongue.”GC 688.2
The opposition to the Bible by the Roman Catholic Church has continued through the centuries and was increased particularly at the time of the founding of Bible societies. On December 8, 1866, Pope Pius IX, in his encyclical Quanta cura,issued a syllabus of eighty errors under ten different headings. Under heading IV we find listed: “Socialism, communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies.... Pests of this sort must be destroyed by all possible means.”

But in recent years a dramatic and positive change has occurred in this respect. On the one hand, the church has approved several versions prepared on the basis of the original languages; on the other, it has promoted the study of the Holy Scriptures by means of free distribution and Bible institutes. The church, however, continues to reserve for herself the exclusive right to interpret the Bible in the light of her own tradition, thus justifying those doctrines that do not harmonize with Biblical teachings.

In light of the above facts, would it not be correct to suggest that the church, in claiming authority to interpret the scriptures in such a way that overrides and/or contradicts scripture, that she, the church, sees herself as having greater authority that scripture? And also, in the claim that you also are in harmony with, that the church is the only rightful interpreter of scripture, means the church has authority even over the holy Spirit, for if the holy Spirit should speak through scripture one thing, and the church another, then the individual must surrender himself to the interpretation of the church, not the Spirit of God?
 
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Marymog

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"...which one of the billions of Christians on this earth do we go to to fulfill Matthew 18:17?"

Um, your local body?? There are Pastors, Priests, Deacons, Elders, on and on in every Church that I have ever been to, this is up to them to make that decision...
Thank you Nancy.

Your "local body" theory knocks the decision down from billions of people to thousands of churches since there are thousands of different churches sooooo that theory won't work either.

Where does Scripture say that the "local body" decides? Didn't the Apostles settle this at the Council of Jerusalem when the "local body" had a interpretation different than the Apostles? In that dispute the Apostles (The Church) held a meeting telling ALL CHRISTIANS what they were to believe/practice on the matter.

What should we do when my "local body" disagrees with your local body and your elders/deacons/pastors/priests/bishops disagree with mine?


Curious Mary