Why do we need priests?

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Giuliano

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If the president of the United States gets impeached, it does not mean the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are wrong, it means that president failed in his duties as president. Similarly, if a bishop goes bad, it does not prove the doctrine of ordination is wrong, it means that particular bishop failed in his duties as bishop. Similarly, if a "marriage" goes bad, that does not prove the sacrament of matrimony is wrong. The attempt to disprove the validity of ordination because there have been bad bishops is just stupid reasoning.
Try to be logical. If the president gets impeached, that is covered by the Constitution, so what are you talking about?

Trying to draw a parallel between marriage is not appropriate since the two are not passing on the sacrament to anyone else. There is no such thing as "matrimonial succession", is there?
Arius, Nestorius, Apollinarus, and every heretic in the patristic period thumbed their noses at the authority of the Church, and went by scripture alone. They did not disprove the office of bishop, they disproved themselves.
Why the unpleasant tone? You having a bad hair day? My question is if a bishop goes bad, what about the priests he's ordained?

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The sacrament of Holy Orders

556 To fulfill their exalted mission, "the apostles were endowed by Christ with a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit coming upon them, and by the imposition of hands they passed on to their auxiliaries the gift of the Spirit, which is transmitted down to our day through episcopal consecration."

1557 The Second Vatican Council "teaches . . . that the fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders is conferred by episcopal consecration, that fullness namely which, both in the liturgical tradition of the Church and the language of the Fathers of the Church, is called the high priesthood, the acme (summa) of the sacred ministry."

1558 "Episcopal consecration confers, together with the office of sanctifying, also the offices of teaching and ruling. . . . In fact . . . by the imposition of hands and through the words of the consecration, the grace of the Holy Spirit is given, and a sacred character is impressed in such wise that bishops, in an eminent and visible manner, take the place of Christ himself, teacher, shepherd, and priest, and act as his representative (in Eius persona agant)." "By virtue, therefore, of the Holy Spirit who has been given to them, bishops have been constituted true and authentic teachers of the faith and have been made pontiffs and pastors."

I know that some bishops are forbidden to do any more ordinations and the Vatican has declared some priests' ordinations null and void. I would think they would not have the ability to pass on the "special outpouring of the Holy Spirit" by the laying on of hands. I doubt they would retain the Holy Spirit myself. That makes sense; but what about sly bishops who lose the Holy Spirit without being discovered?
 

Earburner

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Why do we need priests?

I was pondering this question in my mind yesterday. I can understand why the unsaved or unbelievers might need priests to act as intermediaries between them and God but I can’t understand why those of us who are born again in Christ need priests as the bible calls us a Royal Priesthood. We have direct access to the Father’s throne so we do not need anybody else to access him for us.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2:9

Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:16

We do however, need people to be there with us and for us; to hold up our arms, to wipe our tears and to share our joy. We do need a support network of other Christians; people who will pray with us and for us, encourage, inspire and help us. We need teachers and preachers and we definitely need wise counsellors and inspirational leaders with passion, vision and enthusiasm.

But we do not need priests.
Don't you yet know that every "born again christian" is a priest and king unto the Lord for His purposes?
2 Cor. 3[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Rev. 1[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
> The word "hath" is in the present tense, as in NOW, ever since Pentecost.
 

Earburner

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And this:
2 Cor. 5[20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
 

epostle

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And this:
2 Cor. 5[20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2 Cor. 5[20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

as though God did beseech you by us lends itself to the notion of apostolic succession. "us" can only mean the Apostles, and the "you" is in reference to those trained as bishops by "us". 2 Cor. 5:18 Nowhere in scripture does the common priesthood have the ministry of reconciliation. That function belongs to the ministerial priesthood. Anointing of the Sick is another function belonging to the ministerial priesthood. It means the same thing as "elder".

The Latin phrase: "Alter Christus" means the same thing as we pray you in Christ's stead; a title reserved for the ministerial priesthood. We are all priests but we don't have the same ministerial functions as a highly trained bishop, and by extension, the Office of the Ministerial Priesthood.
 
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ScottA

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2 Cor. 5[20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

as though God did beseech you by us lends itself to the notion of apostolic succession. "us" can only mean the Apostles, and the "you" is in reference to those trained as bishops by "us". 2 Cor. 5:18 Nowhere in scripture does the common priesthood have the ministry of reconciliation. That function belongs to the ministerial priesthood. Anointing of the Sick is another function belonging to the ministerial priesthood. It means the same thing as "elder".

The Latin phrase: "Alter Christus" means the same thing as we pray you in Christ's stead; a title reserved for the ministerial priesthood. We are all priests but we don't have the same ministerial functions as a highly trained bishop, and by extension, the Office of the Ministerial Priesthood.
The royal priesthood is not made up of those "highly trained", but of those of the birthright of the spirit of God. This too was the error of Korah.
 

Pearl

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Don't you yet know that every "born again christian" is a priest and king unto the Lord for His purposes?
Quite so! I seems you may not have read my opening question correctly.
 

Phoneman777

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Why do we need priests?

I was pondering this question in my mind yesterday. I can understand why the unsaved or unbelievers might need priests to act as intermediaries between them and God but I can’t understand why those of us who are born again in Christ need priests as the bible calls us a Royal Priesthood. We have direct access to the Father’s throne so we do not need anybody else to access him for us.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2:9

Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:16

We do however, need people to be there with us and for us; to hold up our arms, to wipe our tears and to share our joy. We do need a support network of other Christians; people who will pray with us and for us, encourage, inspire and help us. We need teachers and preachers and we definitely need wise counsellors and inspirational leaders with passion, vision and enthusiasm.

But we do not need priests.
So that the pedophiles in Hollywood and Washington don't get lonely.
 

BreadOfLife

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Why do we need priests?

I was pondering this question in my mind yesterday. I can understand why the unsaved or unbelievers might need priests to act as intermediaries between them and God but I can’t understand why those of us who are born again in Christ need priests as the bible calls us a Royal Priesthood. We have direct access to the Father’s throne so we do not need anybody else to access him for us.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 1 Peter 2:9

Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:16

We do however, need people to be there with us and for us; to hold up our arms, to wipe our tears and to share our joy. We do need a support network of other Christians; people who will pray with us and for us, encourage, inspire and help us. We need teachers and preachers and we definitely need wise counsellors and inspirational leaders with passion, vision and enthusiasm.

But we do not need priests.
The Protestant objection to human intercession is based largely on a single line of Scripture that says, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…” (1 Tim. 2:5).

However, we also read in the Bible that we are called upon to intercede in prayer for one another (1 Cor. 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:1-3, Eph 6:18, James 5:16, 1 John 5:16). Whereas, Jesus is our only mediator because only His blood is the perfect sacrifice before the Father for our sins, our intercession for one another is commanded in the Scriptures.

In the Old Testament, there were three levels of Priests:
- The High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the Old Testament type.

Finally, in the Epistle of Jude, we read the warning about those who would usurp Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood without the Church’s consent (Jude 1:11). In this passage he compares them to the rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35; 31:16).

We are ALL priests - but we are NOT all ministerial priests (James 5:14-15).
 

marksman

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People needed the priests of old as they were the only ones permitted into the Holy of Holies, but Jesus's death split the temple curtain and made it possible for us to approach God directly as our Father.


The priest thing is a throwback to the Roman Catholic Church. We have to bear in mind that most ordinary people could not read whereas the priest could he was their interpreter of all things spiritual. So in that respect, he was very much needed.

When the bible was printed in volume, the priest was still needed because again the average person could not read. As time went by and people did begin to learn to read the RC church had a problem because people started to find out that what they were taught was not what the scripture taught.

It took Martin Luther, an RC priest to put his foot in the works and challenge the Church with his 95 theses, posted on the door of the cathedral at Wittenburg.

The Reformation which was supposed to challenge the authority of the RC church, but didn't, ended up as bringing about just another version of Roman Catholicism. You will note that the reformed church still had a priest but was known as a pastor; it still had mass but was known as the Lords Table or Communion; it still had ornate buildings in many denominations; it got rid of the Pope but installed a General Superintendent or some such similar entity; they replaced all the regalia and put in place a simpler form of ritual. Although they got rid of the Pope, they replaced him and his authority with the rules of the denomination which in many cases deny the authority of scripture, which is what roman catholicism did.

If I wanted any evidence of the church being Roman Catholic lite it was when I was a housemaster at a secular boarding school. At the age of 13, every boy was taken to the local Anglican Church and confirmed, even if he was the worst rogue on the planet.
 
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marksman

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Matthew 27:51
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split

Mark 15:38
The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

Luke 23:45
for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

Hebrews 10:19-21
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

The curtain of the temple was the actual curtain that separated the Holy Place from the main area. The blood of Jesus tore away the symbolic curtain that separated us from the Holy Place. And that is why we no longer need a priest in order to receive forgiveness from God; we can approach Him directly because of Jesus.

And have you noticed the curtain was torn from TOP to BOTTOM? When we tear anything we tear it from bottom to top. A clear sign that God was at work to open the door to himself.
 
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marksman

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No. I am not mistaken. It is you who has been dishonest about your own church's beliefs.

THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
1333 At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood.... [to be understood literally]

1350 The presentation of the offerings (the Offertory). Then, sometimes in procession, the bread and wine are brought to the altar; they will be offered by the priest in the name of Christ in the Eucharistic sacrifice in which they will become his body and blood...

1357 We carry out this command of the Lord by celebrating the memorial of his sacrifice. In so doing, we offer to the Father what he has himself given us: the gifts of his creation, bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present...

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. the sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood." In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."...

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:...
[THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE SAID]

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."


1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. the Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion...

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation...

Like so many churches, the RC church believes that if they say something then it must be. Whether it is or not is not relevant to them. They are the final authority so what they say has to be believed and accepted. I worked in a catholic school for some time and asked a few pertinent questions of the catholic teachers there. I asked one, what does blood taste like? He said it tasted like wine. I told him I thought someone was having a lend of him. According to him, that was the way things were because the church said so.

In another situation, I worked with a devout catholic who always went to mass before he came to work. I asked why and he said because it meant he had a better chance to escape purgatory and go to heaven. In other words, he was accruing brownie points towards his salvation. Why did he do this? Because that is what the church said.
 
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aspen

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Like so many churches, the RC church believes that if they say something then it must be. Whether it is or not is not relevant to them. They are the final authority so what they say has to be believed and accepted. I worked in a catholic school for some time and asked a few pertinent questions of the catholic teachers there. I asked one, what does blood taste like? He said it tasted like wine. I told him I thought someone was having a lend of him. According to him, that was the way things were because the church said so.

In another situation, I worked with a devout catholic who always went to mass before he came to work. I asked why and he said because it meant he had a better chance to escape purgatory and go to heaven. In other words, he was accruing brownie points towards his salvation. Why did he do this? Because that is what the church said.

so he was superstitious about going to Mass - because the Church doesn’t teach that going to daily Mass gets you out of Purgatory. Perhaps he was actually talking about his spiritual growth which involved daily Mass.
 

Pearl

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Like so many churches, the RC church believes that if they say something then it must be. Whether it is or not is not relevant to them. They are the final authority so what they say has to be believed and accepted. I worked in a catholic school for some time and asked a few pertinent questions of the catholic teachers there. I asked one, what does blood taste like? He said it tasted like wine. I told him I thought someone was having a lend of him. According to him, that was the way things were because the church said so.

In another situation, I worked with a devout catholic who always went to mass before he came to work. I asked why and he said because it meant he had a better chance to escape purgatory and go to heaven. In other words, he was accruing brownie points towards his salvation. Why did he do this? Because that is what the church said.
Religion cripples people. A relationship with Jesus sets us free.
 

marksman

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so he was superstitious about going to Mass - because the Church doesn’t teach that going to daily Mass gets you out of Purgatory. Perhaps he was actually talking about his spiritual growth which involved daily Mass.

If that is what he was talking about, then that is what I would have said as being autistic, I am not into spinning yarns. All I have done is told you what he told me and as you were not there you cannot dispute what I have said much as you would like to.

In fact, all you have done is what he has done according to you and made an assumption that is not true. As I have been told this by many Catholics, there is no smoke without fire. But of course, according to you, they are all wrong.
 
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