My Lord And Savior Is Not A "SISSIFIED NEEDY JESUS", But HE is a GOD of WRATH!!

[reformed1689]

This is true on every message board.
Those persons boasting much of "being led of the Spirit "are almost exclusively led by their own sinful flesh.

And before they give their objection to this let me say how we know this, they often are in direct contradiction to Scripture so we know that their "spirit" is not of God.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

This is true on every message board.
Those persons boasting much of "being led of the Spirit "are almost exclusively led by their own sinful flesh.

Exactly! Led by their goosebumps.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

And before they give their objection to this let me say how we know this, they often are in direct contradiction to Scripture so we know that their "spirit" is not of God.

Sadly true.

 

[amadeus]

I don't recall.

Well I suspect it was several months ago and would difficult to locate among hundreds of posts. Here however is a post to another person which discusses that verse which you say I gloss over. I know over the years on this forum and I others I have discussed this very verse, II Tim 2:15, many times because for many years now I have believed most people misunderstood it. I certainly never 'gloss' over it:

Emotion replacing study

 

[reformed1689]

Well I suspect it was several months ago and would difficult to locate among hundreds of posts. Here however is a post to another person which discusses that verse which you say I gloss over. I know over the years on this forum and I others I have discussed this very verse, II Tim 2:15, many times because for many years now I have believed most people misunderstood it. I certainly never 'gloss' over it:

Emotion replacing study

Thank you. You however, botched it from your opening paragraph in that post.

What Apostle Paul wrote admonished us to read and to study, but the purpose shown is to meet with God's approval by our obedience, NOT in order to learn.

Obedience is the first part, but the last part says rightly dividing the word of truth. It is absolutely about obedience, but it is also about learning the Scriptures, learning the doctrine, learning the theology.

 

[amadeus]

Hence my statement about over-emphasis on the Spirit. An over-emphasis leads to error because you are looking for the "spirit" in everything. You end up listening to your own thoughts and desires and attribute those to the Spirit and in a sense try to make your view infallible.

I know that people sometime twist things changing the facts enough to make themselves look good even if the result is a lie about someone else. I have had worse lies told about me, but the fact that you accepted them as truth does make you at least a partaker. You supposedly have been reading carefully my posts to you and we supposedly have been having sincere discussions. Where is your sincerity now? While I know that you don't agree with a lot of what I have written, was your position so weak that you found it necessary to condone and participate in spreading lies?

Well if it is that important to you win your debate do your worst.
Where is the glory of God?

 

[reformed1689]

I know that people sometime twist things changing the facts enough to make themselves look good even if the result is a lie about someone else. I have had worse lies told about me, but the fact that you accepted them as truth does make you at least a partaker. You supposedly have been reading carefully my posts to you and we supposedly have been having sincere discussions. Where is your sincerity now? While I know that you don't agree with a lot of what I have written, was your position so weak that you found it necessary to condone and participate in spreading lies?

Well if it is that important to you win your debate do your worst.
Where is the glory of God?

Actually I was not referring to you in that post. Do I think you are in error? Yes. Do I think you over-emphasize the spirit? Yes, though I don't think it is out of laziness or mysticism like some. I do believe you study. I think you come to very wrong conclusions that are obviously NOT of the Spirit. I do think that a lot of what you post are your own ideas, though I don't think you realize this.

 

[Waiting on him]

I know that people sometime twist things changing the facts enough to make themselves look good even if the result is a lie about someone else. I have had worse lies told about me, but the fact that you accepted them as truth does make you at least a partaker. You supposedly have been reading carefully my posts to you and we supposedly have been having sincere discussions. Where is your sincerity now? While I know that you don't agree with a lot of what I have written, was your position so weak that you found it necessary to condone and participate in spreading lies?

Well if it is that important to you win your debate do your worst.
Where is the glory of God?

It’s in those whom display mercy and love.

 

[Waiting on him]

I know that people sometime twist things changing the facts enough to make themselves look good even if the result is a lie about someone else. I have had worse lies told about me, but the fact that you accepted them as truth does make you at least a partaker. You supposedly have been reading carefully my posts to you and we supposedly have been having sincere discussions. Where is your sincerity now? While I know that you don't agree with a lot of what I have written, was your position so weak that you found it necessary to condone and participate in spreading lies?

Well if it is that important to you win your debate do your worst.
Where is the glory of God?

John, How do you know your the elect of God?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am attempting no such thing! What is, is! I was simply sharing my understanding, which like every incomplete man, I believe, falls short of all that God has for man. This last, of course, you do not believe. To your mind you have apparently moved beyond belief to knowledge.

No my friend, I have not. God does not speak to us today as He did in the OT and the NT Apostles. We have 66 books in the bible and when we read through them, God speaks to us.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How come?
In The OT the Lamb on the Day of Atonement was sacrificed to God in the place of the man for whom it was shedding its blood , so the mans sins were cleansed and not 'against ' him.

If we move this into the NT it says to me that- the Lamb's blood was shed as sacrifice to God , for man, so that ours sins were cleansed and therefore no against us.
Right?

Let me give you an answer to this that you can apply to every day life.

Say you steal $10,000 off of someone(I know you wouldn't but using this for an example). You squander it before they catch you. Someone comes in and repays that person the money(because you didn't have the money to repay it yourself) and the judge at court is witness of this. That person accepts the payment from that person and is satisfied with that. The judge then slams the gavel and sentences you to 15-20 years in prison. You would deem that judge cruel as that one person paid that $10,000 you owed back on your behalf. Yet, the judge refuses to accept that arrangement made between the three of you(you, the one you stole from, and the person who paid that which you owed).

This is why its utterly important to see how the atonement works. The atonement is an actual atonement, not a potential one. What I mean is that the Christ paid fully the debt His elect sheep owed. He paid it in full. If He paid for everyone w/o exception's sins, and then they are cast into the lake of fire, then God has done this even though the Christ paid their sin debt in full. He paid for them and then they, too, pay for them. That is double jeopardy.

So, if the Christ paid for someone's sins and God punishes them anyways, He would be no different than that judge in the above scenario.

I hope this helps you better understand our position on the atonement.

 

[Helen]

Thanks, well put , great post

 

[SovereignGrace]

Thanks, well put , great post

Now, tell you where you feel my theology is off. I can better articulate my belief this way. I am not trying to brainwash you, and I will go through verses and not twist them, I promise.

 

[Brakelite]

Let me give you an answer to this that you can apply to every day life.

Say you steal $10,000 off of someone(I know you wouldn't but using this for an example). You squander it before they catch you. Someone comes in and repays that person the money(because you didn't have the money to repay it yourself) and the judge at court is witness of this. That person accepts the payment from that person and is satisfied with that. The judge then slams the gavel and sentences you to 15-20 years in prison. You would deem that judge cruel as that one person paid that $10,000 you owed back on your behalf. Yet, the judge refuses to accept that arrangement made between the three of you(you, the one you stole from, and the person who paid that which you owed).

This is why its utterly important to see how the atonement works. The atonement is an actual atonement, not a potential one. What I mean is that the Christ paid fully the debt His elect sheep owed. He paid it in full. If He paid for everyone w/o exception's sins, and then they are cast into the lake of fire, then God has done this even though the Christ paid their sin debt in full. He paid for them and then they, too, pay for them. That is double jeopardy.

So, if the Christ paid for someone's sins and God punishes them anyways, He would be no different than that judge in the above scenario.

I hope this helps you better understand our position on the atonement.

If I may, could I take that a step further? The way I see it is the judge himself paying what is owed. Them telling the man in the dock he is free to go. Sadly, some people simply don't believe what they hear from the judge, and refuse to leave jail.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If I may, could I take that a step further? The way I see it is the judge himself paying what is owed. Them telling the man in the dock he is free to go. Sadly, some people simply don't believe what they hear from the judge, and refuse to leave jail.

With any story(parable) we tell, ppl can always pick holes through them. Only the Christ could tell one and no one can poke a hole through one.

The point I am making is that someone else had to pay her debt for her, as she did not have the means to atone for her sin of stealing $10,000. Someone else had to do that for her. We were in the same boat, sinners guilty before God, with no means of atoning for our sins.

 

[Waiting on him]

Let me give you an answer to this that you can apply to every day life.

Say you steal $10,000 off of someone(I know you wouldn't but using this for an example). You squander it before they catch you. Someone comes in and repays that person the money(because you didn't have the money to repay it yourself) and the judge at court is witness of this. That person accepts the payment from that person and is satisfied with that. The judge then slams the gavel and sentences you to 15-20 years in prison. You would deem that judge cruel as that one person paid that $10,000 you owed back on your behalf. Yet, the judge refuses to accept that arrangement made between the three of you(you, the one you stole from, and the person who paid that which you owed).

This is why its utterly important to see how the atonement works. The atonement is an actual atonement, not a potential one. What I mean is that the Christ paid fully the debt His elect sheep owed. He paid it in full. If He paid for everyone w/o exception's sins, and then they are cast into the lake of fire, then God has done this even though the Christ paid their sin debt in full. He paid for them and then they, too, pay for them. That is double jeopardy.

So, if the Christ paid for someone's sins and God punishes them anyways, He would be no different than that judge in the above scenario.

I hope this helps you better understand our position on the atonement.

Sounds as if your saying if God casts any one into the lake of fire then it’s because He sees the payment as insufficient?

 

[reformed1689]

Sounds as if your saying if God casts any one into the lake of fire then it’s because He sees the payment as insufficient?

No, it is because the payment was not made for them. Christ did not die for every individual. He only died for the elect.

 

[amadeus]

Actually I was not referring to you in that post.

Were you not? Consider the post to which you were responding. It mentions me by name and certainly twists the truth. If you were not referring to me, should you have connected yourself in that way? I might believe that you had no wrong intent, but I am not the only one reading here.

Do I think you are in error? Yes. Do I think you over-emphasize the spirit? Yes, though I don't think it is out of laziness or mysticism like some. I do believe you study. I think you come to very wrong conclusions that are obviously NOT of the Spirit. I do think that a lot of what you post are your own ideas, though I don't think you realize this.

In this last part you simply stating your disagreement with me. That's OK considering the kind of forum this is, but consider as well… although I may be nothing to you and my feelings may not matter at all...

No matter what you think of me and my beliefs, you do need to look more closely at yourself in the way you deal with others and in every word that comes effectively or even seemingly out of your mouth for God is surely looking.


I know from past experience that some people within your group believe it is OK to lie or deceive to further the work of God. Don't tell me this is not so for I saw worse things than this on another forum many years ago and the worst of lies were not told against me. But even when confronted with it the prevaricator would not repent.

According to your belief, as I understand it, when a person intentionally continues in error after supposedly having received his salvation, it means that he was never really saved in the first place.

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." Matt 25:45

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matt 12:36​

 

[VictoryinJesus]

miss the Way be unending nothingness?

The Way being: His ways are higher and His thoughts are Higher? That (imo) is what makes this topic so unfruitful. Was reading last night and wanted to jump in to your defense but nothing said here will change those opinions appointed to wrath. Only One can change it and it is a waste of time when it may just be as needed to let them eat alone of their own teachings until they have had their fill of wrath. As Paul warned it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Lord.

“unending nothingness” consider is the result of the consuming, but remember always in the Fire but not consumed, instead Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

 

[Waiting on him]

Yay it story time at Calvin’s playhouse, I have a story.
It kinda parallels the other story. Let’s say the judge sees the payment as made in full, and I am the one whom stole the 10k.
I’m desperate to find the one whom paid my debt. I look for him every where, then one day I see Him, and weeping I say I’ve searched for you desperately to thank you for this mighty deed you’ve done, how can I repay. His answer is beyond belief,

I’ve done this for all go and do the same,
For I’ve given you sonship and only a son has the power to forgive sin. Through you perpetuating this I will be made manifest to all.