My Lord And Savior Is Not A "SISSIFIED NEEDY JESUS", But HE is a GOD of WRATH!!

[amadeus]

John, How do you know your the elect of God?

I have never said that I was. God knows for each of us, but in spite of what people say, I believe it to be a rare person who knows he is before he reaches the end of his course. Consider the words of Apostle Paul:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" Acts 20:24

"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." II Tim 4:6-8

I am not Paul and I do not believe I am so close as that to my end. I have met only a couple of people who might be approaching where he was when he wrote those words. For me... I know that my fight, my course is not yet finished. I move on in surrender to Him until He tells me otherwise.

 

[Renniks]

The atonement was offered to God, not us.

Penal substitution is woefully inadequate. Contains an element of Truth, but doesn't even begin to cover the full implications of atonement.

 

[Renniks]

@Renniks did you address this post of mine?

Yes. It's simply wrong. Scripture never portrays an all controlling God

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sounds as if your saying if God casts any one into the lake of fire then it’s because He sees the payment as insufficient?

No. The payment is sufficient for those for whom the payment was made.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yay it story time at Calvin’s playhouse, I have a story.
It kinda parallels the other story. Let’s say the judge sees the payment as made in full, and I am the one whom stole the 10k.
I’m desperate to find the one whom paid my debt. I look for him every where, then one day I see Him, and weeping I say I’ve searched for you desperately to thank you for this mighty deed you’ve done, how can I repay. His answer is beyond belief,

I’ve done this for all go and do the same,
For I’ve given you sonship and only a son has the power to forgive sin. Through you perpetuating this I will be made manifest to all.

There’s only one problem. There are none who understand, there are none who seek God[Romans 3:11].

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes. It's simply wrong. Scripture never portrays an all controlling God

I was referring more to this portion of it...

We don't paint God as evil, your side does. Your side avers the Christ atoned for everybody w/o exceptions sins. They are paid for, yet, in your schema, many who He atoned for will be cast headlong into the lake of fire, which is the second death. For Him to punish the sinners whose sins have been paid for would make Him evil. Yet, you can not accept this truth at this time.

 

[Renniks]

I was referring more to this portion of it...

It makes no sense. The ones that are cast into the fire volunteer to go there.

 

[Renniks]

No. The payment is sufficient for those for whom the payment was made.

The payment is made for all who accept it. A gift is not a gift if it can't be refused... It would be spiritual rape.

 

[Renniks]

No my friend, I have not. God does not speak to us today as He did in the OT and the NT Apostles. We have 66 books in the bible and when we read through them, God speaks to us.

God doesn't speak to you personally? The holy spirit is active, not sleeping. He still speaks directly to us in many ways, with scripture, and nature and personal conviction, even through secular stories. You're limiting God terribly. So much for his sovereignty.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The payment is made for all who accept it. A gift is not a gift if it can't be refused... It would be spiritual rape.

Here is the thing my friend. The lost are dead in their sins and transgressions per Ephesians 2:1. Dead in the Greek is ‘nekros’ which means a literally dead corpse. They can not reach out and accept this gift in that condition. Why? They are dead spiritually, but alive physically, and in that condition hate God. They are hostile towards God per Romans 8:7.

Divine quickening is not spiritual rape as you grotesquely put it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God doesn't speak to you personally? The holy spirit is active, not sleeping. He still speaks directly to us in many ways, with scripture, and nature and personal conviction, even through secular stories. You're limiting God terribly. So much for his sovereignty.

He doesn’t speak verbally to us is what I mean. He speaks to us through His word.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The payment is made for all who accept it. A gift is not a gift if it can't be refused... It would be spiritual rape.

So, the payment is dangled out for ppl to come in get it? It’s like dangling a carrot in front of a horse. You’re making salvation a reward for ppl’s efforts.

 

[Waiting on him]

No. The payment is sufficient for those for whom the payment was made.

See that’s your theology and it has no power to perpetuate. In your story none become the son of god or have the power to forgive all, were by He is made manifest to the world. I feel sorry for you guys.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It makes no sense. The ones that are cast into the fire volunteer to go there.

Again, your side states the Christ died for everyone w/o exception. So, He paid their sin debt in full and their still punished for their sins. That has the Christ paying for them, and then they, too, pay for them. That’s double jeopardy.

 

[SovereignGrace]

See that’s your theology and it has no power to perpetuate. In your story none become the son of god or have the power to forgive all, were by He is made manifest to the world. I feel sorry for you guys.

Please elaborate on this portion. I am unclear what your stating here. Thanks.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Penal substitution is woefully inadequate. Contains an element of Truth, but doesn't even begin to cover the full implications of atonement.

So, which view do you believe better describes the atonement of the Christ?

 

[Renniks]

Here is the thing my friend. The lost are dead in their sins and transgressions per Ephesians 2:1. Dead in the Greek is ‘nekros’ which means a literally dead corpse. They can not reach out and accept this gift in that condition. Why? They are dead spiritually, but alive physically, and in that condition hate God. They are hostile towards God per Romans 8:7.

Divine quickening is not spiritual rape as you grotesquely put it.

Death is obviously used metaphorically here. We are also said to be dead to sin once we are saved... Doesn't mean we can't sin. This
Quickening is not irresistible. People resist the Spirit even as believers.
"stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That’s what your ancestors did, and so do you!"

Do you mean to tell me that God did not try to speak to his people? He said he held his hands out to them all day long. But they refused.

 

[Renniks]

He doesn’t speak verbally to us is what I mean. He speaks to us through His word.

Not just through his word. Through many different means.
And why would you limit him to not speaking verbally? He certainly can if he wishes.

 

[Renniks]

Again, your side states the Christ died for everyone w/o exception. So, He paid their sin debt in full and their still punished for their sins. That has the Christ paying for them, and then they, too, pay for them. That’s double jeopardy.

No, it's conditional atonement. If I give you a gift only on one condition, you can't say you were not offered the gift, only that you refuse the condition.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Death is obviously used metaphorically here. We are also said to be dead to sin once we are saved... Doesn't mean we can't sin. This
Quickening is not irresistible. People resist the Spirit even as believers.
"stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That’s what your ancestors did, and so do you!"

Do you mean to tell me that God did not try to speak to his people? He said he held his hands out to them all day long. But they refused.

Quickening is irresistible. The wind blows where it wishes(the Christ using the wind as to how the Spirit moves) and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit[John 3:8].

God doesn’t try anything my friend. He does as He pleases.