Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
That being said, the Gnostic views or beliefs concerning the Logos varied but eventually they saw Christ as the revealed Logos, the word or expression of God animated in a spiritual-physical form that walked the earth in the personification of Yeshua. Early Christians like Valentinus and Marcion at one time were very popular with the church but as their views and writings became “Gnostic/mystic” in nature, they were condemned. The Gnostics did considered themselves as mystics, but they were faithful to the worship of Yeshua in their own way, not in His physical form as having been born in the flesh, but as the manifestation of the Logos and the liberation of His spiritual aspect on the Cross. But then they believed that He was the Logos personified, and in that sense He could have never been born, because He was ever present since the beginning of time. The existent Word…. flesh…but not flesh…present in the physical as an illusion. But to the Gnostics, the Word had a germinating spiritual affect which placed a spiritual spark into Mankind, and then salvation was from within. (John 17:23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.) This verse and others like it represent the sprinkling of Gnosticism throughout the Gospel of John and even Revelation.
So then the Gnostics believed that what Yeshua taught was inside of all of us, so that if we could just merge ourselves with----and into the knowledge within us we could be saved. This philosophy shared some Platonic features as well, for it was the existence and knowledge of the One, being within the individual, could then realize the “truth” and then know the means of salvation. Logos was the focal point and the key, the connecting force and principle that bound the eternal cosmos to the individual Soul, in whose image it was created. This concept, where as all that is matter, and all that is physical is dark and evil, is a distinctly Greek philosophical thought and the Gnostics married this belief with Christ’s teaching to formulate their beliefs and eventually some of this crept into Christianity.
The existence of the Gnostic elements of the Gospel of John is not a modern observation and if it was not for the popularity of the Apostle John, it might not have been included in the Canon. The Gospel of John identifies the Christian Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos), and further identifies Yeshua as the incarnate Logos. Early translators of the Greek New Testament such as Jerome (in the 4th century AD) were frustrated by the inadequacy of any single Latin word to convey the meaning of the word Logos as used to describe Yeshua in the Gospel of John. The Vulgate Bible usage of in principio erat verbum was thus constrained to use the (perhaps inadequate) noun verbum for "word", but in the later translations they had the advantage of nouns such as le mot in French. Reformation translators took another approach. Martin Luther rejected Zeitwort (verb) in favor of Wort (word), for instance, although later commentators repeatedly turned to a more dynamic use involving the living word as believed by Jerome and Augustine.
Then again John has other issues, most notably is the Gnostic belief that the conception of Yeshua was a metaphysical-physical-spiritual conception, but then Yeshua’s spirit descended from heaven where He previously resided. There are several scriptures to this effect, even outside of John. The point and intent being to elevate Yeshua above the Jewish God. Yeshua is Almighty, not His Father…Yeshua is Alpha and Omega not His Father. Yeshua existed before His birth. Yeshua created the World…not His Father. Yeshua has all authority….not His Father. This becomes a problem for early Christianity because this belief is straight up Gnostic, and later comes back to haunt them when they try to denounce Gnosticism, but then hold Gnostic beliefs themselves. So they ended up having to defend their own beliefs while denouncing the Gnostics that had similar beliefs.
The superiority of Yeshua was not a belief held by many Christians in the era. The Bible references and designations of God as the Father and Yeshua as Lord, added to the belief that Christ was a demi-god.
By the time of the Ecumenical Councils, they were contending with many different beliefs within Christianity. One of the ways that the Ecumenical Council’s dealt with this…was to come up with the oneness formula for the Trinity. That way at least God the Father was involved with creation in some way and maybe at least equal with Christ, in that they were the same person.
But the decision of the councils really did not have an affect on those that believed God the Father was the supreme God and many held different beliefs regarding the three Gods and their unity. The confusion factor for Christians was when they read the interactions between Yahweh and Yeshua in the Gospels, and then had to juggle the beliefs of conception and eternal existence. So then statements about Creation-Almighty-Alpha and Omega-all Authority-Judgment, were erroneous because it pertained to all of them in one person and could not be contributed to or connected to any “one” of them. Which just served to cause more confusion and then arguments and the rejections of the council’s decision. Ultimately it was ruled that if anyone did not believe in their decision, they would not go to heaven and if they preached against it, they could be killed as a heretic.
The one God formula was thought to appeal to the Jews, but it really never caught on because their prophesized Messiah was suppose to be a human.
Still again, many Christians embrace the metaphysical concept of “The Word” and the concept of One God…One person, which is fine with me….Christ spoke the Word of God….but for me I just keep it simple. Three named Gods = three Gods that are united. But then I firmly believe that it was God the Father that created the world and all that is. Which does not take away from the fact that Christ and the Holy Spirit are also full-fledged Gods and are united in a spiritual way. In context and perspective, the debate regarding “the exact” construct of the Trinity is somewhat futile, because it is uncomprehendible. But it is certainly comprehendible that the Gnostic religion and their assessment of the Old Testament God are false. But then it is also obvious that there are Gnostic elements in mainstream Christianity.
So then the Gnostics believed that what Yeshua taught was inside of all of us, so that if we could just merge ourselves with----and into the knowledge within us we could be saved. This philosophy shared some Platonic features as well, for it was the existence and knowledge of the One, being within the individual, could then realize the “truth” and then know the means of salvation. Logos was the focal point and the key, the connecting force and principle that bound the eternal cosmos to the individual Soul, in whose image it was created. This concept, where as all that is matter, and all that is physical is dark and evil, is a distinctly Greek philosophical thought and the Gnostics married this belief with Christ’s teaching to formulate their beliefs and eventually some of this crept into Christianity.
The existence of the Gnostic elements of the Gospel of John is not a modern observation and if it was not for the popularity of the Apostle John, it might not have been included in the Canon. The Gospel of John identifies the Christian Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos), and further identifies Yeshua as the incarnate Logos. Early translators of the Greek New Testament such as Jerome (in the 4th century AD) were frustrated by the inadequacy of any single Latin word to convey the meaning of the word Logos as used to describe Yeshua in the Gospel of John. The Vulgate Bible usage of in principio erat verbum was thus constrained to use the (perhaps inadequate) noun verbum for "word", but in the later translations they had the advantage of nouns such as le mot in French. Reformation translators took another approach. Martin Luther rejected Zeitwort (verb) in favor of Wort (word), for instance, although later commentators repeatedly turned to a more dynamic use involving the living word as believed by Jerome and Augustine.
Then again John has other issues, most notably is the Gnostic belief that the conception of Yeshua was a metaphysical-physical-spiritual conception, but then Yeshua’s spirit descended from heaven where He previously resided. There are several scriptures to this effect, even outside of John. The point and intent being to elevate Yeshua above the Jewish God. Yeshua is Almighty, not His Father…Yeshua is Alpha and Omega not His Father. Yeshua existed before His birth. Yeshua created the World…not His Father. Yeshua has all authority….not His Father. This becomes a problem for early Christianity because this belief is straight up Gnostic, and later comes back to haunt them when they try to denounce Gnosticism, but then hold Gnostic beliefs themselves. So they ended up having to defend their own beliefs while denouncing the Gnostics that had similar beliefs.
The superiority of Yeshua was not a belief held by many Christians in the era. The Bible references and designations of God as the Father and Yeshua as Lord, added to the belief that Christ was a demi-god.
By the time of the Ecumenical Councils, they were contending with many different beliefs within Christianity. One of the ways that the Ecumenical Council’s dealt with this…was to come up with the oneness formula for the Trinity. That way at least God the Father was involved with creation in some way and maybe at least equal with Christ, in that they were the same person.
But the decision of the councils really did not have an affect on those that believed God the Father was the supreme God and many held different beliefs regarding the three Gods and their unity. The confusion factor for Christians was when they read the interactions between Yahweh and Yeshua in the Gospels, and then had to juggle the beliefs of conception and eternal existence. So then statements about Creation-Almighty-Alpha and Omega-all Authority-Judgment, were erroneous because it pertained to all of them in one person and could not be contributed to or connected to any “one” of them. Which just served to cause more confusion and then arguments and the rejections of the council’s decision. Ultimately it was ruled that if anyone did not believe in their decision, they would not go to heaven and if they preached against it, they could be killed as a heretic.
The one God formula was thought to appeal to the Jews, but it really never caught on because their prophesized Messiah was suppose to be a human.
Still again, many Christians embrace the metaphysical concept of “The Word” and the concept of One God…One person, which is fine with me….Christ spoke the Word of God….but for me I just keep it simple. Three named Gods = three Gods that are united. But then I firmly believe that it was God the Father that created the world and all that is. Which does not take away from the fact that Christ and the Holy Spirit are also full-fledged Gods and are united in a spiritual way. In context and perspective, the debate regarding “the exact” construct of the Trinity is somewhat futile, because it is uncomprehendible. But it is certainly comprehendible that the Gnostic religion and their assessment of the Old Testament God are false. But then it is also obvious that there are Gnostic elements in mainstream Christianity.
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