True Trinity.

[justbyfaith]

and even denies its other, valid, spiritual meanings,

Please elaborate on what you think these are.

 

[bbyrd009]

1 John 3:10
John 1:12
Matthew 12:50 even

 

[justbyfaith]

1 John 3:10
John 1:12
Matthew 12:50 even

I don't understand your point...say it in your own words, please.

 

[bbyrd009]

20 Bible verses about Believers As Sons Of God

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't understand your point...say it in your own words, please.

Jesus is your High Priest, and you are not supposed to be worshipping Him
is about as plain as i can get

 

[JustAskin]

seriously?

• “For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” (Romans 8:14)
• “I only said that I am the Son of God... if I am not doing his works then do not believe me’ (Jesus: John 10:36-37, paraphrased)

The Holy Angels are ‘[Spirit] Sons of God’ because they ‘Do the works of God’. No explicit verse(s) required - the whole of scriptures testifies to the dutiful works of the holy angels as apportioned to them by God.

I believe the opposer is blatantly playing a ‘Satan’ in the face of indisputable facts of scriptures and in defiance of all attempts to express truth and righteousness.

Be warned not to get exasperated at him/them but understand that ‘These [things] must be’! Use it to test your strength of resolve in expressing the truth that you clearly are aware of.

 

[JustAskin]

this completely distorts the meaning of I am in the Father, the Father in Me and even denies its other, valid, spiritual meanings, dont you think? Jesus is reduced to an Icon of Worship, and has entered the pantheon (as Apollos surely)

Jesus is not ‘reduced to an icon of worship’... it is the exact opposite. Perhaps that’s what you meant!
In Trinity Ideology, Jesus is RAISED to an icon of Worship!!! The claim Jesus was even worshipped by supporters, disciples, and people he healed. In fact, there are no such events. Jesus was ”Bowed Down To” but this is not WORSHIP.
Point in case: The Jews were seeking reasons to arrest Jesus. The Jews knew it was blasphemy to worship anyone but GOD, the Father. So.... when they witnessed what Trinitarians misrepresents as ‘Worship’ given to him... WHY didn’t they arrest both Jesus and the person/people who Trinitarians claim were carrying out the illegal act??
CLEARLY, they did not (not even comment against it) because THEY did not regard ‘Obeisance’ as ‘WORSHIP’.
Indeed, did not Bathsheba ‘WORSHIP’ at the bedside of the aged king David, yet no one of trinity is claiming that Bathsheba gave, and king David accepted, WORSHIP!

Clearly, the act was ‘Obeisance’, is an act worthy towards ALL who are in a position of reverence: Kings, Priests, Prophets, Masters, Lords, Notables, etc?

No... and indeed, Jesus states clearly that only the Father must be worshipped:

• ”In Spirit and In Truth”

 

[bbyrd009]

yes

 

[JustAskin]

Tigger 2 listed examples of:
Personal names (including 'Immanuel')

Well stated, tigger 2,

It can only be an disingenuous mind that stands to claim that ‘Immanuel’ is a physical manifestation rather than a spiritual expression.

The Father, YHWH, the only true God, stated in Isaiah 42:1 that he would:

• ‘...send MY servant...’

and that He, the Father, would:

• ‘...put MY spirit on him...’

Ask a Trinitarian,

1. Who is this ‘SERVANT of God’?
2. When did God put HIS Spirit on him?
3. How is God’s SPIRIT defined in scriptures (not by trinity minds!)

I can guarantee no credible answer will be given.

As such, let me give those answers:

1. Jesus, the Christ (‘Anointed one’), serves the purpose of Almighty God. Jesus is also described as ‘Son of God’, which means:
   1. ‘He who does the will of the Father (God)’ and you can see that ‘Son’ and ‘Servant’ amount to the same person. ‘Indeed, while the son is underaged, he IS no different to a Servant’ (paraphrased from scriptures)
2. Almighty God put HIS SPIRIT on the perfect servant, Jesus, at the river Jordan. The anointing oil was ‘the Oil of Gladness: the Holy Spirit of God’. This anointing represented a ‘Setting Aside for Kingship, and [High] Priesthood’, both of which Jesus achieves in time to come. Certainly, a person claimed to be Almighty God would not require to be anointed ...as High Priest TO ALMIGHTY GOD!!
3. The Holy Spirit of God (...of the Father), is described as ‘like a wind’... indeed, IT alighted upon:
   1. Jesus in the manner of a light fluttering breeze akin to that produced by a landing dove. Do not say that the Holy Spirit WAS A DOVE as many pagan thoughts say!!
   2. The Apostles as a GREAT WIND with lightening and thunder (quite the opposite to Jesus). Do not think of the Holy Spirit as a PERSON. Do you regard an electricity line carrying power with 12000volts of electricity is a person, a book of all knowledge as a person, etc. No, the Holy Spirit is Almighty God’s working power given to mankind by God himself through Jesus. Jesus stated: ‘Stay in Jerusalem until I send you THE PROMISE FROM THE FATHER’: the Holy Spirit. And the Father said, ‘I will send them my Holy Spirit’. Trinitarians falsely claimed the Holy Spirit is ALSO the Spirit of Jesus... this is not true. Consider that a postal delivery agent is NOT the owner of the birthday present that he gives to you... the owner is the SENDER (perhaps your nonresident Father!!)

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is not ‘reduced to an icon of worship’... it is the exact opposite. Perhaps that’s what you meant!
In Trinity Ideology, Jesus is RAISED to an icon of Worship!!! The claim Jesus was even worshipped by supporters, disciples, and people he healed. In fact, there are no such events. Jesus was ”Bowed Down To” but this is not WORSHIP.
Point in case: The Jews were seeking reasons to arrest Jesus. The Jews knew it was blasphemy to worship anyone but GOD, the Father. So.... when they witnessed what Trinitarians misrepresents as ‘Worship’ given to him... WHY didn’t they arrest both Jesus and the person/people who Trinitarians claim were carrying out the illegal act??
CLEARLY, they did not (not even comment against it) because THEY did not regard ‘Obeisance’ as ‘WORSHIP’.
Indeed, did not Bathsheba ‘WORSHIP’ at the bedside of the aged king David, yet no one of trinity is claiming that Bathsheba gave, and king David accepted, WORSHIP!

Clearly, the act was ‘Obeisance’, is an act worthy towards ALL who are in a position of reverence: Kings, Priests, Prophets, Masters, Lords, Notables, etc?

No... and indeed, Jesus states clearly that only the Father must be worshipped:

• ”In Spirit and In Truth.

But if you truly accept the kjv as inspired, you will recognize that it translates what the man born blind did with Jesus as "worship" not "obeisance."

Jesus is your High Priest, and you are not supposed to be worshipping Him
is about as plain as i can get

I don't think that the verses in question teach us that.

It can only be an disingenuous mind that stands to claim that ‘Immanuel’ is a physical manifestation rather than a spiritual expression.

gnosticism at its core. You are aware that gnosticism was the doctrine that nearly destroyed the early church?

The Father, YHWH, the only true God,

Indeed, the son that was given (Isaiah 9:6, Hebrews 1:8-9)

Ask a Trinitarian,

1. Who is this ‘SERVANT of God’?
2. When did God put HIS Spirit on him?
3. How is God’s SPIRIT defined in scriptures (not by trinity minds!)

I can guarantee no credible answer will be given.

There is indeed a credible answer:

Phl 2:5, Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7, But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8, And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9, Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phl 2:10, That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phl 2:11, And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

From this passage the following things can be determined:

1) Jesus was in the form (morphe) of God and therefore was God.
2) He humbled Himself and took on the form of a servant.
3) He is given a name that is above every other name (including Jehovah?)...

Certainly, a person claimed to be Almighty God would not require to be anointed ...as High Priest TO ALMIGHTY GOD!!

Why not?

Do not think of the Holy Spirit as a PERSON.

He is indeed a Person; for He has a mind (Romans 8:27) and can be lied to (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4). Not to mention the latter passage shows clearly that He is God.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't think that the verses in question teach us that.

that Christ is our High Priest? I mean, i dunno what vv you are talking about, but you are denying this?

 

[justbyfaith]

that Christ is our High Priest? I mean, i dunno what vv you are talking about, but you are denying this?

They don't teach us that we are not to worship Jesus because He is our High Priest. Unless you can quote it out and give commentary so that I can understand your point...

 

[bbyrd009]

They don't teach us that we are not to worship Jesus because He is our High Priest. Unless you can quote it out and give commentary so that I can understand your point...

the Scriptures that you ignored earlier make the point amply i guess; and who or what is "they?" I can find plenty of Scripture that we are to worship Yah alone, and your Jesus worship is a very bad idea, ok? And no, Yah is not a person, sorry; you are a person, you have a penis etc, but those are analogies used to make characterizations, that you are taking too literally, as made plain in other Scripture also
imo
...Who dwells in unapproachable light
see
which you want to go somewhere that you never will, also according to Scripture, which is why you want Yah to be a person so bad i guess

 

[justbyfaith]

I can find plenty of Scripture that we are to worship Yah alone, and your Jesus worship is a very bad idea, ok?

Not ok.

Jesus is YAH.

You must know that if anyone doesn't believe that Jesus is the great I AM (YAH), they will die in their sins.

Therefore, it is an essential of the faith and you cannot call yourself a real Christian without it.

And no, Yah is not a person, sorry;

Indeed He is. For YAH speaks to us throughout the pages of the Holy Bible.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not ok.

Jesus is YAH.

You must know that if anyone doesn't believe that Jesus is the great I AM (YAH), they will die in their sins.

Therefore, it is an essential of the faith and you cannot call yourself a real Christian without it.



Indeed He is. For YAH speaks to us throughout the pages of the Holy Bible.

and in closing the Bible is not Holy either, you cannot Quote that anywhere, except maybe in English, weird i know, but there it is. If you doubt this try and Quote it. Best of luck in your quest for immortality with Apollos k, seriously, but about Christ you are anti right now bro, no offense. You cannot Quote any of your current behavior or understanding from Scripture, except by the worst sort of cherry picking and ignoring wadr. Your pastor is a predator, and you will be too if you arent careful.

I would sure be worshipping Yah alone, as Scripture commands us, but you go and do whatever you think is best

 

[JustAskin]

bbyrd009, please be mindful that justbyfaith is tugging your strings. He is playing at being ‘a Satan’: an opposer to truth.

I am an analyst and note that the refutations in his replies contain nothing of a Christian leaning. He is thrashing - he has no understanding of what he is saying; ignores truth of verses; has difficulty expressing what he thinks he’s saying; and misrepresenting verses (Phil 2, etc) based on what some trinitybased ideology may have taught him in falsehood.

Isaiah 52:13... 53:12 (are these numbers deliberate!!) express the whole of the life of the Messiah (the Christ) to come.

Honestly, Phil 2 speaks of Jesus being anointed with the FULLNESS of Holy Spirit and thereby (‘For the Father was pleased that in [Jesus] the fullness (Holy Spirit) should dwell’ (Col 1:19)) thereby ENABLING the full power of God to be worked THROUGH HIM.
This makes Jesus CAPABLE of acting AS GOD but ONLY if he is righteous and faithful (Does not GRIEVE the Spirit of God) in all things.
So, Phil 2 says that, although he had access to the full power of the almighty, Jesus DID NOT HAVE A THOUGHT AS TO A SEIZURE in becoming Almighty God.
Is it not exemplified in scriptures at least twice before:

• Joseph was given the FULL POWER of Pharoah - but did not think to BECOME Pharoah... indeed, Pharoah said to him: ‘In all things EXCEPTING MY THRONE (regarding this) you are Pharoah!’. Do not be fooled by the last part... Pharoah still REMAINS Pharoah even as Joseph is given his full power to ACT IN HIS PLACE... Joseph never acts to depose Pharoah nor become 100% EQUAL to Pharoah. “BUT INSTEAD”...
• Mordeciah, the Jew, sought to SAVE THE JEWS (Book of Esther). King Xerxes gave Mordeciah his signet ring (His POWER) so that anything edicted by Mordeciah was AS IF IT WAS THE KINGS OWN EDICT. But Mordeciah did not think to become King Xerxes but humbled himself to serve the purposes of his people who had been condemned to death (Re: Adams sin condemned ALL MANKIND to everlasting death... see the analogy!)

Satanic forces in high places will not allow Trinitarians to see this truth due to their devilish childish agenda! So do not be dismayed by justbyfaith’s defiance!

 

[justbyfaith]

@JustAskin,

@bbyrd009 often plays the devil's advocate here and whether he is really a believer or not some of us cannot really tell.

But you should know that I read through all of the epistles once a week; through all of the gospels, Acts, and Revelation once a month; through Psalms and Proverbs twice a month, each; through the minor prophets three to five times in a year; and through Genesis-Deuteronomy and the major prophets about twice in three years. And Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon once every twenty days with Job once every forty days.

So I am certainly not biblically illiterate as you seem to think. I spend much time and prayer seeking to understand more every day of what the whole counsel of God declares to us...so I think that I know the message of the Bible rather well.

 

[JustAskin]

@JustAskin,

@bbyrd009 often plays the devil's advocate here and whether he is really a believer or not some of us cannot really tell.

But you should know that I read through all of the epistles once a week; through all of the gospels, Acts, and Revelation once a month; through Psalms and Proverbs twice a month, each; through the minor prophets three to five times in a year; and through Genesis-Deuteronomy and the major prophets about twice in three years. And Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon once every twenty days with Job once every forty days.

So I am certainly not biblically illiterate as you seem to think. I spend much time and prayer seeking to understand more every day of what the whole counsel of God declares to us...so I think that I know the message of the Bible rather well.

justbyfaith, I don’t know bbyrd009 except by the few posts I’ve read in this thread. So far... what he has written agrees with a truth from scriptures - but what you say is patently disingenuous. I see a playful devilry in your responses, deliberately obfuscating scriptural truth, and denial of the reality of the spiritual order... basically, you are ‘Grieving the Holy Spirit’.

If I were to ask you some simple question relating to trinity and the ideology of it, and if you were to answer with sincerity and integrity, you would end up agreeing that trinity is false - a Catholic misconception.

But I can see from your past performance that you would not answer my question with integrity and sincerity. Remember that (or know this), I am an analyst and require precise data that is sound, robust, and consistent over all aspects of the data set (Scriptures, in this case).

This thread question is concerning whether the God of a trinity is Polytheistic or Monotheistic. Trinity claims monotheistic because it constantly cites itself as believing in ONE GOD - but as THREE PERSONS.

Now that might sound honourable as an ideology (What is claimed to be your doctrine) - but it is NOT CONSISTENT with what the scriptures says.

‘Hear, o Israel, thy God is one God’, which is so often quoted as ‘proving trinity is monotheistic’, is a FALSE PROOF. The Israelite God spoke these words, not to prove he is ‘ONE GOD’ in the way that trinity uses it.

The Israelites were in and among and surrounded by tribes and nations who believed that the universe and all within was created and maintained and overseen by MANY Deities (Gods), of which, in general, there were THREE PRINCIPAL GODS (I’m sure that even cursory research will show this).

The Israelites God told his people that they were to believe that HE was to be their ONLY GOD... this is the use of the term ‘One God’: That He, and He alone, created and maintains the created world and all within.

So please STOP using ‘Hear o Israel...’ as anything to do with proving a trinity. The verse serves to distinguish pagan and heathen theology from Hebrew/Israelite and Jewish/Christian/Muslim theology - that there is only one TRUE God. In this, and upto this point trinity is right: There IS only one true God.

But next is where trinity ideology (notice that I don’t say ‘Theology’!) departs from the truth of a ‘One God’. Trinity claims that, though they believe their God is the only true GOD (though falsely state it as in a meaningless statement of ‘One God’), they claim that HE is THREE PERSONS.

But not only a complete falsehood of reality that there are Three Persons who are (the) One Person (of God), but that’s these three are CO-Eternal, Co-Equal, and co-(well, everything!). THEN we are to understand THAT THEY ARE NOT... because one of them is a HIGHER RANK than the others... and another is LEAST RANKED... how does that conform to EQUALITY?

And again, Once realised that a rank order, along with a ‘Father and Son relationship’ differentiating two, requires that the ‘Sons comes AFTER the ‘Father’, an improbable and impossible explanation is given as to how the ‘Son’ came into being... the outcome being that ‘He’ was ‘BORN FROM ETERNITY’.

Well, come on... ‘Born from..’ any time is still ‘Born’... and Born means CREATED... and CREATED means ‘Brought into being’. And guess what: ‘Father’ means (among other things) ‘He that BRINGS into being’. But trinity realised that ’a God’ (a Deity) cannot be brought into being. and if the Son is brought into being then there was a time when he DID NOT EXIST. So, the most obscure and weird ideology is offered: ‘He is ETERNALLY GENERATED... eternal born’. But since this solves nothing as to how there is a separation between ‘Father/Son’ and the so-called ‘Third Person’, there is a complete failure of integrity in a threefold co-equal GOD!

Also, what is the definition of ‘God’... trinity defines ‘God’ as ‘Essence and Nature’... but this is RUBBISH!!! If the DEITIES are IN ‘Essence and Nature’ then each is a GOD in their own right.

Therefore trinity belief is POLYTHEISTIC (despite the claim of being monotheistic). It is no different to a Pantheon of Deities... it’s no different to saying:

• ‘We believe in a rulership of [three] deities’
• The ‘Father’ is overall Deity and creator
• The ‘Son’ is responsible for (something less)
• The ‘Holy Spirit’ is responsible for (Something else lesser)

Did the Philistines not have the same ideology, and the Romans, and the Egyptians, and the Sikhs, Indians, etc.

The idea that all three are co-equal is completely destroyed in its very definition - and we haven’t even touched on any lack of scriptural evidence.

A case in point is in Genesis. It will be noticed that Genesis starts of saying that God created the world. Now is this ‘God’ a trinity of deities? ... whoa! Isn’t ‘the Father’ defines as:

• ‘He that brings into being...’

so how is it said by trinity that, in fact, it was the ‘Son’ who created all things... oh dear, integrity destroyed!!

But, continue with Genesis. It seen that the Power of God, the Holy Spirit, hovers over the created earth. So, We have ONE PERSON, God, and we have HIS SPIRIT. This is still ONE PERSON. And onwards through Genesis there is no mention of another ‘person’. So how is TRINITY proved in Genesis. Clearly, it is not!

Oh, do you say, ‘Let us make man in our image’.. well now you show another ‘person(s). Guess what? The HOLY ANGELS were present at the creation. They were already existing BEFORE creation. They are not, however, INSTIGATORS of creation. If you use a hammer and screwdriver to create a cupboard with available material, you do not claim the hammer and screwdriver as participants in the creation of the cupboard.

So, understand that the Holy Angels are HIGHLY POWERFUL AND INTELLIGENT BEINGS... God (The Father!!) final act in the creation is to bring into being a creature who is a physical image of his spirit self. WHY would the Father be speaking to HIMSELF? No, God suggested to the onlooking holy angels that He would create an overseer creature with the intelligence and authority to manage the lesser creatures in the physical world. You notice that the the words are:

• ‘And God created man in HIS IMAGE’

He did not say, ‘THEIR IMAGE’.
Now, if there was a trinity of deities in a ONE GOD and that one God created a creature ‘In his/their image’ then where is the EVIDENCE that mankind is THREE PERSONS? Of course there is none because it is bunkum!

justbyfaith, I can write till next month and next year... I’ll stop here for the time being!

I hope you reply with what you can say as your ideology surrounding what I’ve just expressed to you as the truth... the truth is ONE - so who is right?

 

[Invisibilis]

Those who truly 'know' Truth, Love, and Faith, will 'know' the Trinity.

 

[justbyfaith]

I see a playful devilry in your responses,

There is no devilry in my responses; but I seek to give unadulterated sound doctrine to the people:

2Co 2:17, For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2Co 4:1, Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2Co 4:2, But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

HEN we are to understand THAT THEY ARE NOT... because one of them is a HIGHER RANK than the others... and another is LEAST RANKED... how does that conform to EQUALITY?

Equal in essence, non-equal in authority.

Well, come on... ‘Born from..’ any time is still ‘Born’... and Born means CREATED... and CREATED means ‘Brought into being’.

Indeed, Jehovah God was brought into being (Isaiah 45:11, Romans 1:3) in His humanity as God the Son.

But trinity realised that ’a God’ (a Deity) cannot be brought into being.

I beg to differ; for Jesus is both human and divine.

and if the Son is brought into being then there was a time when he DID NOT EXIST.

Not necessarily. For it is written (Ephesians 4:10) that He ascended to fill all things. Before He descended, He inhabited eternity (Isaiah 55:17). After He ascended, He also came to dwell outside of time; for time is a created thing according to modern science and Christian doctrine.

Therefore trinity belief is POLYTHEISTIC

I suggest you read again posts #1-#5 of this thread. It declares a Trinitarian belief that is primarily Oneness.

so how is it said by trinity that, in fact, it was the ‘Son’ who created all things... oh dear, integrity destroyed!!

It is clear from scripture that the Son did indeed create all things (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Ephesians 3:9; Isaiah 44:24)

This is still ONE PERSON.

Indeed; I believe that God is one Person.

God (The Father!!) final act in the creation is to bring into being a creature who is a physical image of his spirit self.

If Jesus is the first creation of the Father, consider that this creation is light (Genesis 1:3). Consider that the scripture teaches that God is light (1 John 1:5). This would indicate that the first creation of the Father is also God; even the manifestation of the Father to everything. If you want to go there.

then where is the EVIDENCE that mankind is THREE PERSONS?

I believe that there is a verse in Job that teaches that man is tripartite in nature; and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 also substantiates this fact.