Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Why would I not believe a brother in Christ?

We know Leighton quite well.....He does not know the teaching, but substitues carnal philosophy and twists what people day all the time. We confronted his error for years directly.
He is a nice guy, but completely off base.

 

[Renniks]

We know Leighton quite well.....He does not know the teaching, but substitues carnal philosophy and twists what people day all the time. We confronted his error for years directly.
He is a nice guy, but completely off base.

You ever consider you may be the ones in error?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Well according to your theology, they only hate him because he decided to make them hate him. So, it would actually be God creating hate against himself.

Can you quote any of us saying any such thing?
Why do you suggest such a profane thought about God?
God cannot sin in any way...why would you suggest such an evil idea, just because you cannot understand what is being offered to you?

 

[Paul Christensen]

verse37

Put the verses together and we get the drawing of the Father and the positive response from the person toward Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Because they were biological descendents. This would match perfectly with your belief in conditional election (you were chosen because you did something).

Unconditional election is shown to be biblical even more. Thanks.

Both your view and "the Jewish sects" view thought they were elected because of something they did or something about them. Your conditional election error parallels the Jewish sects error so your view is the same as their view.

Next.

Boom!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

You ever consider you may be the ones in error?

Of course, we considered such an idea. I know each of these men have sought out and read the main teaching of those who believe other ideas.
If you or anyone else offers biblical correction we would be open to it. It just has not happened yet.
Poor Leighton took the position of Pauls objector in Romans 9....that position is not defensible.
P4T actually directly had Leighton admit to his man-centered beliefs.

 

[Giuliano]

Jn3 speaks of a spiritual change, 1 cor15, bodily change.

Oh, you think so, do you?

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I repeat: If you have been born of the Spirit, you should be able to move like the wind -- separate from your physical body -- the way Ezekiel could.

 

[Renniks]

Can you quote any of us saying any such thing?
Why do you suggest such a profane thought about God?
God cannot sin in any way...why would you suggest such an evil idea, just because you cannot understand what is being offered to you?

It's the logical conclusion of everything happens because of God's decree. See the Westminster confession. If it all ultimately is God's doing, he is the only sinner.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Put the verses together and we get the drawing of the Father and the positive response from the person toward Christ.

Yes... I sometimes use this passage evangelistically by pointing out All given, at a point in time will come, then ask them...have you come to Jesus yet? If not I would ask God for mercy.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Oh, you think so, do you?

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I repeat: If you have been born of the Spirit, you should be able to move like the wind -- separate from your physical body -- the way Ezekiel could.

That is not what the passage refers to. It speaks of the unseen work of the Spirit...it cannot be seen, but you see the results of His regenerating work.

 

[Renniks]

P4T actually directly had Leighton admit to his man-centered beliefs.

I would like to see that conversation. I think you are twisting what actually happened.

 

[Renniks]

Yes... I sometimes use this passage evangelistically by pointing out All given, at a point in time will come, then ask them...have you come to Jesus yet? If not I would ask God for mercy.

Why? If you are irresistibly caused to come or passed by, why would you do anything? In that case, God does it all. I need not ask for anything.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

It's the logical conclusion of everything happens because of God's decree. See the Westminster confession. If it all ultimately is God's doing, he is the only sinner.

Your logic is betraying you.
Anything that comes to pass was ordained to come to pass.
Logic is not leading to truth, scripture does, like this;
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I would like to see that conversation. I think you are twisting what actually happened.

no, no....I saw it, it is still on the archives.....
Leighton denied the illuminating work of the Spirit as described in 1 cor2....to me directly.
P4T asked him directly...Leighton is honest, he will stand by his error, I give him credit for that.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I would like to see that conversation. I think you are twisting what actually happened.

If you saw it, would it change your mind?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Why? If you are irresistibly caused to come or passed by, why would you do anything? In that case, God does it all. I need not ask for anything.

Good question....
God ordains the ways and the means..look in Acts18;

read the whole chapter but look here;
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

God told him He had much people, not all...God knew who were His;

God did not give Him the names, He used Pauls preaching and teaching and disputing...do you see it???

 

[Paul Christensen]

Yes... I sometimes use this passage evangelistically by pointing out All given, at a point in time will come, then ask them...have you come to Jesus yet? If not I would ask God for mercy.

The Scripture: "By grace are we saved through faith, not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

This verse is totally consistent with the other two. "By grace are we saved". This is the drawing of the Father, the invitation to receive Christ, the enlightenment that causes the blind eyes to see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ. "Through faith". This is the saving faith that comes through the Holy Spirit when, after being enlightened, we believe the gospel and turn our hearts toward Christ. "Not of ourselves". This shows that it is the work of God in us, giving us the faith to receive Christ. "It is the gift of God", God gives us the enlightenment and the saving faith without us having to earn it in any way. "Not of works lest any should boast". There is nothing we can do to contribute to our salvation, so we have no foundation to boast in our own ability to come to Christ. It is all of Him. We just respond by believing the gospel and asking Christ to come into our lives as Saviour and Lord.

This is consistent with: "Be not anxious for anything, but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God, and the peace of God that passes all understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

Then we demonstrate our faith in Christ by turning away from the works of the flesh and seeking to live according to the fruit of the Spirit.

So when we combine related Scriptures together, we get a clearer picture of how to gospel works in order to bring us to faith in Christ.

 

[Dcopymope]

On the contrary...when we are accurate is teaching the truth of God, we leave the results totally in God's hand. Jesus did not water down the truth ever. We do not need to help God...His word will find it's target, watch;
isa55;
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

....And of course you have to skip over half the chapter so you can rob the rest of it of its context, I assume to make it sound like it fits with Calvinist doctrine. It doesn't, for the invitation to salvation is for everyone who seeks it in their heart, and for those who seek, shall not return to God null and void. Its not just for those God chose to seek, as a Calvinist would say, but for everyone.

The rest of the chapter:

(Isaiah 55:1-7) "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. {2} Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. {3} Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. {4} Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. {5} Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee. {6} ¶ Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: {7} Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

The Scripture: "By grace are we saved through faith, not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

This verse is totally consistent with the other two. "By grace are we saved". This is the drawing of the Father, the invitation to receive Christ, the enlightenment that causes the blind eyes to see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ. "Through faith". This is the saving faith that comes through the Holy Spirit when, after being enlightened, we believe the gospel and turn our hearts toward Christ. "Not of ourselves". This shows that it is the work of God in us, giving us the faith to receive Christ. "It is the gift of God", God gives us the enlightenment and the saving faith without us having to earn it in any way. "Not of works lest any should boast". There is nothing we can do to contribute to our salvation, so we have no foundation to boast in our own ability to come to Christ. It is all of Him. We just respond by believing the gospel and asking Christ to come into our lives as Saviour and Lord.

This is consistent with: "Be not anxious for anything, but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God, and the peace of God that passes all understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

Then we demonstrate our faith in Christ by turning away from the works of the flesh and seeking to live according to the fruit of the Spirit.

So when we combine related Scriptures together, we get a clearer picture of how to gospel works in order to bring us to faith in Christ.

God uses many verses to speak of this...so great salvation.
There are times I can split hairs, there are times I can see it the way an artist puts a a painting together. God is the author and finisher of faith... We are saved by, or through faith in scripture...never BECAUSE of faith.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

....And of course you have to skip over half the chapter so you can rob the rest of it of its context, I assume to make it sound like it fits with Calvinist doctrine. It doesn't, for the invitation to salvation is for everyone who seeks it in their heart, and for those who seek, shall not return to God null and void. Its not just for those God chose to seek, as a Calvinist would say, but for everyone.

The rest of the chapter:

I do not skip over anything and neither does any Calvinist need to.
No man seeks God in and of himself. Gods tells us that. We believe Him.
Psalm 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Those who eventually seek God do so as a result of Jesus seeking out His sheep by the Spirit.
Why is this hard for you to understand...look here;
ezk 34 17 times God says how He will search out His sheep seeking and saving them.
Thats exactly what Jesus does.