Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Renniks]

It is interesting to learn that only one heretic was burned at the stake during Calvin's lifetime, and that for a definite heresy that was undermining the basic principles of Reformed Christianity of the time.

Lol, so it's ok if they are killed in other ways? What a misleading post! Only one was burned, hurray!

When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547. But, he weren't burned, so that's just peachy keen.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Thank you for this well balanced post. Those who hate Calvinism have already consigned John Calvin to hell. They automatically think he was some tyrant in Geneva. He wasn’t best I can tell, but my exposure to this history is not as in-depth as others. None of us knows all that truly transpired and who exactly called for Servetus’ execution. In my opinion, it was the gov’t, not Calvin.

Nobody is perfect. We all have our faults and shortcomings. Apart from the absolute essentials of the gospel which are very clearly stated, there are many differences of opinion depending on how the Bible is read. That's quite normal. No one person is absolutely right and everyone else is wrong. In my many years of being in the faith, I have had to change my theological views as I have gained better insights into what the Bible is actually saying. We are also influenced by those who have mentored and discipled us.

For example: After many years of defending many practices and doctrines in the Charismatic movement, after reading a couple of excellent books about the invasion of paganism and the occult into the movement, I have had to change my ideas

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Really, You put a link mocking a fellow Christian on all your posts?
You know Flowers was a Calvinist. Does it gall you that much that some come to their senses?

Yes. I put a link to that and know the person running that twitter handle personally. Flowers teaches knowing the LORD is a personal achievement so of course you'd be in good company and defend him.

Leighton was never a Calvinist. That you believe him? Enough said.

 

[Giuliano]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[Preacher4Truth]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Hmm. Note ":" at the end of verse 12?

Why? "Who were born" John 1:13, which was the cause of their receiving him in John 1:12. Most can't believe that, y and would rather give themselves the glory than to believe it were all due to God. Let's hear your retort defending persons for doing it rather than giving all glory to God in it showing the reason for receiving was due solely to God, not themselves. Waiting.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Uh oh!

okay, Looks like I might need to go back a few pages,lol

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Fatalism is by an impersonal force. God doing things by his own purpose, counsel, will and wisdom is not an impersonal force. Your illustration is apple's and oranges.

As a side note, I've attempted to reach out to you like a Christian, you rejected this and reacted to that with name calling, sowing discord and attempting to cause division.

It is startling that you offer help and rather than ponder the help offered you have a professed believer heap scorn upon you. Perhaps he cannot offer much more, lets see where he goes...

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Hmm. Note ":" at the end of verse 12?

Why? "Who were born" John 1:13, which was the cause of their receiving him in John 1:12. Most can't believe that, y and would rather give themselves the glory than to believe it were all due to God. Let's hear your retort defending persons for doing it rather than giving all glory to God in it showing the reason for receiving was due solely to God, not themselves. Waiting.

There is no stop sign after verse 12. Verse 13 seems to explain the passage clearly,

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

1. Your wrong
2. he is talking about 2 nations. There is NOTHING in the context of Mal 1 where he is talking about 2 babies who have not been born yet.

I do not care of it is paul or anyone else. When you use a quote from another author You take them in context Because you do not assume everyone knows the passage quoted and they WILl go back an investigate to see what was being said. You do not take them to say something they never insinuated or said.

But hey, Let’s do another 1.

Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

Again, Is this talking about 2 babies not yet born, Or two nations?

The OT verses were speaking of the physical descendants, the nations.
In Romans 9 Paul is not quoting either passage. Instead he is explaining why one Israelite gets saved , and one does not. Here he speaks of individual election.

He uses two words...one for physical descendants..[sperma]...one for spiritual children of promise..[teknon].
Look it up, and learn frpm the passage itself.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Right now we are talking about romans 9, Can you please keep in context? Or is this too hard for you?

By the way can you answer What reason did the pharisees use to show why they were Gods chosen people?

You are being offered some help, a bit of correction...take advantage of that.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

There is no stop sign after verse 12. Verse 13 seems to explain the passage clearly,

Many stop at John 1:12 to glory in "what they've done" rather than progressing to a few words later that show it was all due to God.

Rather than give him this glory they will respond back against it in order to give it to themselves. It appears they get angry over giving God all the glory as they attempt to keep part of it for themselves.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Doctrines like calvinism are a prime example of why Christianity is considered a joke by many. They give atheists, and other unbelievers all the ammunition, all the excuse they need to reject God. It certainly is not an interpretation of scripture that paints God in a positive light.

On the contrary...when we are accurate is teaching the truth of God, we leave the results totally in God's hand. Jesus did not water down the truth ever. We do not need to help God...His word will find it's target, watch;
isa55;
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Question for the room

What was one of the main arguments the jewish religious sect used to show Why God chose them?

Because they were biological descendents. This would match perfectly with your belief in conditional election (you were chosen because you did something).

Unconditional election is shown to be biblical even more. Thanks.

Both your view and "the Jewish sects" view thought they were elected because of something they did or something about them. Your conditional election error parallels the Jewish sects error so your view is the same as their view.

Next.

 

[Giuliano]

There is no stop sign after verse 12. Verse 13 seems to explain the passage clearly,

Does it?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There are some who think they don't need to do a thing except "accept Jesus." They think they're completely changed right then and there.

Yet if that is so, why would people need to be changed later?

I Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul was right. Some of the people he was writing to were changed without sleeping. Most people read that and think he lied, that he and all the people he was writing to died without being changed. They say, "He didn't mean them, he meant us."

People seem to think born of water is the same as born of the Spirit. Hardly. Those who are born of the Spirit can move like the wind, the way Ezekiel did.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Paul Christensen,

The question I keep answering, and no one seems able or willing to answer it. How does anyone know they are elect if it not that they have believed the gospel, exercised faith in Christ and met the conditions? Does a person have to know that they are definitely elected before they can even take the first step in receiving Christ, and how can they know?

No person can believe in Jesus, unless the Spirit gives them a new heart as they are born from above.
As newborn babes they desire the milk of the word.
God places them in a believing church to grow as disciples.
The fruit of the Spirit will be manifest in time;
To get assurance of faith Peter explains it this way to the elect saints;2pet1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence,
add to your faith virtue;
and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance;
and to temperance patience;
and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness;
and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
\

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Doctrines like calvinism are a prime example of why Christianity is considered a joke by many. They give atheists, and other unbelievers all the ammunition, all the excuse they need to reject God. It certainly is not an interpretation of scripture that paints God in a positive light.

Actually your "choose yourself into heaven" view is what is ridiculed by the world. Even the wicked Alice in Chains mocks your view in its blasphemous song "Be Born Again."

On the other hand the world hates God because he is good and Sovereign and elects to eternal life whom he wills leaving them out of control. Thus the carnal man loves the lie they can vote themselves into heaven whenever they like, making them god because they want to be in control.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Does it?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There are some who think they don't need to do a thing except "accept Jesus." They think they're completely changed right then and there.

Yet if that is so, why would people need to be changed later?

I Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul was right. Some of the people he was writing to were changed without sleeping. Most people read that and think he lied, that he and all the people he was writing to died without being changed. They say, "He didn't mean them, he meant us."

People seem to think born of water is the same as born of the Spirit. Hardly. Those who are born of the Spirit can move like the wind, the way Ezekiel did.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jn3 speaks of a spiritual change, 1 cor15, bodily change.

 

[Renniks]

Yes. I put a link to that and know the person running that twitter handle personally. Flowers teaches knowing the LORD is a personal achievement so of course you'd be in good company and defend him.

Leighton was never a Calvinist. That you believe him? Enough said.

Why would I not believe a brother in Christ?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

How do you reconcile:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day" (John 6:44)?

verse37

 

[Renniks]

On the other hand the world hates God because he is good and Sovereign and elects to eternal life whom he wills leaving them out of control.

Well according to your theology, they only hate him because he decided to make them hate him. So, it would actually be God creating hate against himself.